B
berseak
I don't have experience implement ISO9001 for Law Section in my company.
Can't create Procedure. I need some help.
Best Regard,
Berseak
Can't create Procedure. I need some help.
Best Regard,
Berseak
Richard Regalado
Trusted Information Resource
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section
Merry Christmas Berseak!
Do you want to implement ISO 9001 or you want to create procedures? Which industry have you experienced ISO 9001?
What specific help do you need?
Merry Christmas Berseak!
Do you want to implement ISO 9001 or you want to create procedures? Which industry have you experienced ISO 9001?
What specific help do you need?
B
berseak
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section
It's OK. My Business is Logistic & SCM have a law department. My boss want to law department involve of ISO9001:2008. But they don't know about ISO and can't to create document (Procedure, WI, Form).
I don't know in law process. And Law's staff not good co - operate. If possible I want to see Ex. about Law procedure.
Thank you.
It's OK. My Business is Logistic & SCM have a law department. My boss want to law department involve of ISO9001:2008. But they don't know about ISO and can't to create document (Procedure, WI, Form).
I don't know in law process. And Law's staff not good co - operate. If possible I want to see Ex. about Law procedure.
Thank you.
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section
What do they get from outer departments as inputs and what do they give out to other departments as outputs ?
The Law staff are certainly experts in law. Do they all have sufficient knowledge and experience in law concerned to logistics and SCM business ? Do they need any additional training in such related Law ?
Do they understand process and interaction and why they are in your company and how their work quality effects your customers ?
Have they been exposed to the ISO9001 standard and requirement as mentioned within and got an understanding about the Plan, Do, Check, and Act requirements ?
Perhaps that is all which is necessary ...
OK, within the logistics and SCM business, where and how does the law department fit in ?
What do they get from outer departments as inputs and what do they give out to other departments as outputs ?
The Law staff are certainly experts in law. Do they all have sufficient knowledge and experience in law concerned to logistics and SCM business ? Do they need any additional training in such related Law ?
Do they understand process and interaction and why they are in your company and how their work quality effects your customers ?
Have they been exposed to the ISO9001 standard and requirement as mentioned within and got an understanding about the Plan, Do, Check, and Act requirements ?
Perhaps that is all which is necessary ...
K
keres
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section in my company
Use your company's procedure template, talk with your legal department about their duties and the procedure is ready.
Use your company's procedure template, talk with your legal department about their duties and the procedure is ready.
M
mguilbert
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section in my company
Do not forget the training. Assuming you are in the United States. Most attorneys need a certain amount of CLE's (Continueing Legal Education) Credits each year to continue practicing and being members of the Bar. Just a heads up. I work with Vets and we got hit with this one in an external. The best way we have found is to use the state license board to perform this and we just have copies of their latest licenses. If they didn't qualify they would not have a license.
Do not forget the training. Assuming you are in the United States. Most attorneys need a certain amount of CLE's (Continueing Legal Education) Credits each year to continue practicing and being members of the Bar. Just a heads up. I work with Vets and we got hit with this one in an external. The best way we have found is to use the state license board to perform this and we just have copies of their latest licenses. If they didn't qualify they would not have a license.
P
pldey42
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section in my company
Does this help? It's the "Supply Chain Management Policy and Procedures Manual" for Emfuleni, which is "s one of three Local Municipalities comprising the Sedibeng District Municipality situated in Vanderbijlpark, Gauteng, South Africa" (http://www.emfuleni.gov.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=7)
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/43698004/Supply-Chain-Management-Policy-and-Procedures-Manual
Until I looked at this I thought, "How hard can it be?" Now I realize that if you're documenting legal procedures for a Supply Chain Management environment there are some serious issues to consider such as staying on the right side of any anti-corruption legislation that may apply in your country, minimizing opportunities for fraud, corporate governance and so forth.
I can quite understand that the legal people may not want to co-operate, and you'll certainly need their help in order to succeed. I think it would be a good idea to ask your manager, or the CEO, to say why the law team need to be within the scope of the ISO 9001 QMS - professionals are always more likely to co-operate when they see a good reason to do so. I would suggest also a course or a book on facilitating process mapping and documentation, so that you can guide the legal experts in documenting what's necessary.
If it were me I would be very careful. The penalties for a company for getting its legal stuff wrong can be crippling and I would not want to be found to have pushed the company into an illegal situation by, for example, not correctly documenting a legal process. With that in mind, there's a lot to be said for having the legal people document their own processes.
I've had some experience of legal processes in my ISO 27001 information security work, and it can be a nightmare. I suspect that some companies are knowingly illegal some of the time (e.g with regard to the UK Data Protection Act) and regard being completely legal as too expensive. Their plan is a financial settlement and an apology out of court if they're caught out.
In some cases the procedures for keeping the company legal (e.g with regard to the Data Protection Act) is led by the law department but involves others (e.g call centre operatives who take calls regarding personal data from members of the public). How they keep legal is a mixture of rigid procedures, regular training and re-training (for those situations that are hard to proceduralize and need "common sense" and legal knowledge) and the provision of escalation procedures for situations that people are uncomfortable with. Escalation goes up the hierarchy eventually to the chief legal officer. There are also processes for regularly checking for changes in the law as written, and as interpreted in Courts as "case law", and revising procedures and training as necessary.
It gets harder when different laws contradict each other (often mediated by courts) and again when the company operates in several different countries.
It gets harder again when corruption is common, e.g. paying bribes (which I think they call "contributions to the pension fund") to police and customs in order to be allowed to move goods. I suspect that for some companies the bribes, while illegal, are quietly declared in the accounts as something else so that at least the cash is accounted for.
Because of the complexities and the risks of illegal practices becoming disclosed in Court, I imagine there may be some resistance to writing it all down in documented procedures and that legal departments often rely heavily on skill and experience instead of documented procedures.
Hope this helps,
Pat
Does this help? It's the "Supply Chain Management Policy and Procedures Manual" for Emfuleni, which is "s one of three Local Municipalities comprising the Sedibeng District Municipality situated in Vanderbijlpark, Gauteng, South Africa" (http://www.emfuleni.gov.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=7)
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/43698004/Supply-Chain-Management-Policy-and-Procedures-Manual
Until I looked at this I thought, "How hard can it be?" Now I realize that if you're documenting legal procedures for a Supply Chain Management environment there are some serious issues to consider such as staying on the right side of any anti-corruption legislation that may apply in your country, minimizing opportunities for fraud, corporate governance and so forth.
I can quite understand that the legal people may not want to co-operate, and you'll certainly need their help in order to succeed. I think it would be a good idea to ask your manager, or the CEO, to say why the law team need to be within the scope of the ISO 9001 QMS - professionals are always more likely to co-operate when they see a good reason to do so. I would suggest also a course or a book on facilitating process mapping and documentation, so that you can guide the legal experts in documenting what's necessary.
If it were me I would be very careful. The penalties for a company for getting its legal stuff wrong can be crippling and I would not want to be found to have pushed the company into an illegal situation by, for example, not correctly documenting a legal process. With that in mind, there's a lot to be said for having the legal people document their own processes.
I've had some experience of legal processes in my ISO 27001 information security work, and it can be a nightmare. I suspect that some companies are knowingly illegal some of the time (e.g with regard to the UK Data Protection Act) and regard being completely legal as too expensive. Their plan is a financial settlement and an apology out of court if they're caught out.
In some cases the procedures for keeping the company legal (e.g with regard to the Data Protection Act) is led by the law department but involves others (e.g call centre operatives who take calls regarding personal data from members of the public). How they keep legal is a mixture of rigid procedures, regular training and re-training (for those situations that are hard to proceduralize and need "common sense" and legal knowledge) and the provision of escalation procedures for situations that people are uncomfortable with. Escalation goes up the hierarchy eventually to the chief legal officer. There are also processes for regularly checking for changes in the law as written, and as interpreted in Courts as "case law", and revising procedures and training as necessary.
It gets harder when different laws contradict each other (often mediated by courts) and again when the company operates in several different countries.
It gets harder again when corruption is common, e.g. paying bribes (which I think they call "contributions to the pension fund") to police and customs in order to be allowed to move goods. I suspect that for some companies the bribes, while illegal, are quietly declared in the accounts as something else so that at least the cash is accounted for.
Because of the complexities and the risks of illegal practices becoming disclosed in Court, I imagine there may be some resistance to writing it all down in documented procedures and that legal departments often rely heavily on skill and experience instead of documented procedures.
Hope this helps,
Pat
Wes Bucey
Prophet of Profit
Re: ISO 9001 Implementation for Law Section
First, you, your boss, and the head of the law department need to sit down with an "informational meeting."
In this meeting, the boss (I presume your boss is higher ranked than the law department - if not, you need to get the highest boss possible on board with your boss so your side outranks the law side) will say, "Our organization NEEDS to become ISO registered to help us maintain our present markets and penetrate new ones. If we do NOT do this, we will soon ALL be out of jobs. Let's work out how ALL departments in our organization, including the legal department, can do what is necessary to get our entire organization registered to ISO 9001."
Second, the law boss will assign someone from his department to work WITH you to learn how ISO can be interpreted and applied in the various functions of the organization, taking care that the legal department will PROTECT the organization from any activity that would violate pertinent regulations or expose the organization to business risks (patents, copyrights, trade secrets, etc.)
By cooperating and asking for help, rather than dictating, "my way or the highway," you and your boss will have a much better chance of accomplishing your goal and avoiding obstructionists or saboteurs within your organization.
Bottom line: this is a "change management" issue, not legal or ISO.
OK - It is apparent you are NOT in the USA, so most of my legal education and experience will not be pertinent to the specifics of exactly what your law department will do, but I can give you some tips on HOW to get them to cooperate with you and your boss in formulating a policy and process to protect your organization.
First, you, your boss, and the head of the law department need to sit down with an "informational meeting."
In this meeting, the boss (I presume your boss is higher ranked than the law department - if not, you need to get the highest boss possible on board with your boss so your side outranks the law side) will say, "Our organization NEEDS to become ISO registered to help us maintain our present markets and penetrate new ones. If we do NOT do this, we will soon ALL be out of jobs. Let's work out how ALL departments in our organization, including the legal department, can do what is necessary to get our entire organization registered to ISO 9001."
Second, the law boss will assign someone from his department to work WITH you to learn how ISO can be interpreted and applied in the various functions of the organization, taking care that the legal department will PROTECT the organization from any activity that would violate pertinent regulations or expose the organization to business risks (patents, copyrights, trade secrets, etc.)
By cooperating and asking for help, rather than dictating, "my way or the highway," you and your boss will have a much better chance of accomplishing your goal and avoiding obstructionists or saboteurs within your organization.
Bottom line: this is a "change management" issue, not legal or ISO.
B
berseak
Bottom line: this is a "change management" issue, not legal or ISO.
This sentence very clear.
This sentence very clear.
It is more about identify and map the process and interaction of your business considering all functions who work to meet the customer's requirement. Include as much as it touches the business objective, goals and set policy.
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