SBS - The best value in QMS software

ISO 9001, ISO 17020 and ISO 3834 Joint (Integrated) QMS

S

speen

#1
Hello,
My company has been struggling with ISO certification for the last couple of years. We're a small company with the following structure:

Location 1:
NDT & Industrial Services Department.
Providing non-destructive testing, pressure-testing, pickling, hot oil flushing and chemical cleaning services. 6 employees.

Location 2:
Welding & Surface Treatment Department.
Providing welding, sandblasting, painting & assembly services. 8 employees.

Location 3:
Machining Department.
Providing various machining services. 1 employee.

As of now the management has decided that Location 1 shall develop a QMS according to ISO 17020, while Location 2 shall develop one according to ISO 3834. Location 3 has no plans for any QMS atm.

I am not involved in either of these QMS projects. That being said I have great interest in seeing the company developing a well structured and organized QMS.
My point of view is that the company should aim for ISO 9001 first.
Because of my view I have researched abit on ISO 9001. One of my finding was the Documentation Numbering - Families .pdf sheet posted by Patricia Ravanello.

Now for my question.
Would it be sensible to use this approach with 3 different SOP's for Product Realization (1 for each department).

E.g
  • SOP-10 :: NDT & Industrial Services Realization
  • SOP-11 :: Welding & Surface Treatment Realization
  • SOP-12 :: Machining Realization

Now within these SOP's would it be possible to define and document the requirements in ISO 17020 / ISO 3834?

PS!
If anyone knows of a standard that defines the requirements for machining company's I would appreciate it.

Kind Regards
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#2
Welcome to the Cove! :bigwave:

It seems to me you are imagining more complexity than you need.

I see no reason why you can't make a single integrated quality management system with a manual, procedures, work instructions and record keeping that suit your needs, help you ensure customer satisfaction and oh by the way, conform to the standards' requirements. It is easier to do that and ask "how does XYZ conform to the standard's requirements - do we need to make a change? If so, what change is needed and practical for us?" than to list a bunch of requirements and say "Now we must write procedures to do all these things."

Does that make sense?
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
speen,

I agree with Jennifer. You seem preoccupied with writing procedures instead of understanding your organization as a system of interacting processes.

Your instincts are right. It is advisable first to develop the management system than actually runs your company so it is process-based and meets the requirements of ISO 9001.

Then you and your colleagues can seek and capture or design any necessary processes and control measures so that one organizational management also conforms to the other system standards where it needs to.

You need more confidence in your machine shop's management system than assuming it does not already fulfill 90% of the requirements specified by the standard (BTW, ISO 9001 is the standard most suited to machine shops).

So, involve your colleagues in analyzing and understanding the management system you already have (by flowcharting it) instead of ignoring it and attempting to impose procedures written around the standard,

Keep coming back with your questions,

John
 
M

Mallya

#4
Based on your situation taking into account you still struggling with QMS (yourself and company) my advice don't complicate life it better to start with ISO 9001 and proceed with inter grating other systems into existing system life would be easier to you and your fellow staff who need to understand importance of QMS to their operations

Rgs

Benny
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Hello,
My company has been struggling with ISO certification for the last couple of years. We're a small company with the following structure:

Location 1:
NDT & Industrial Services Department.
Providing non-destructive testing, pressure-testing, pickling, hot oil flushing and chemical cleaning services. 6 employees.

Location 2:
Welding & Surface Treatment Department.
Providing welding, sandblasting, painting & assembly services. 8 employees.

Location 3:
Machining Department.
Providing various machining services. 1 employee.

As of now the management has decided that Location 1 shall develop a QMS according to ISO 17020, while Location 2 shall develop one according to ISO 3834. Location 3 has no plans for any QMS atm.

I am not involved in either of these QMS projects. That being said I have great interest in seeing the company developing a well structured and organized QMS.
My point of view is that the company should aim for ISO 9001 first.
Because of my view I have researched abit on ISO 9001. One of my finding was the Documentation Numbering - Families .pdf sheet posted by Patricia Ravanello.

Now for my question.
Would it be sensible to use this approach with 3 different SOP's for Product Realization (1 for each department).

E.g
  • SOP-10 :: NDT & Industrial Services Realization
  • SOP-11 :: Welding & Surface Treatment Realization
  • SOP-12 :: Machining Realization

Now within these SOP's would it be possible to define and document the requirements in ISO 17020 / ISO 3834?

PS!
If anyone knows of a standard that defines the requirements for machining company's I would appreciate it.

Kind Regards
There are numerous questions. First, it may help to know your country, as there may be significant regulatory requirements for the activities you describe. Those must be considered. A bit of information can help folks here provide a better answer.

Next, you are making the best possible move. However, you will run into challenges.

Next, you will have different organizations providing oversight. For example, ISO9001 will require a Registrar. ISO/IEC 17020:2012 requires an accrediting body (AB) for accreditation. It is not possible to obtain both from the same organization. Registrars must be accredited by an IAF-Signatory AB, 17020 accreditation must be provided by an ILAC-Signatory AB.

First thing to do is get the standards and read them. Next, understand they have different purposes! ISO9001 tends to be more aligned with manufacturing, while 17020 is inspection - NOT manufacturing.

So, a little more information will help us here to provide you better information.
 
S

speen

#6
Hello and thanks for the welcome and constructive replies.

Jennifer hit the nail on the head. Overcomplicate is my middlename. I'm working in it! :truce:

Now as for country of origin, we're located in Norway.

Regarding ISO 17020, the following statement is the reason we are implementing it:

From NORSOK M-601:2008
Companies performing visual inspection and NDT activities shall have a quality system in compliance with
ISO 17020 or equivalent.


Now as you can see, it does not state that you have to be accredited. That's why we are not aiming for that, at least for now.

So as of now my company is only aiming for a ISO 3834 certification (Quality management of the welding process).

Hershal has a good point though about reading the standards. I'm going to dive back into 9001 first (as I still belive this is the standard is fundamental for any QMS).
 
S

shaahid

#7
Hi
dear Brothers how r u i hope u r fine
my question is

whats is the risk impartiality.
it did demonstrate how to avoid the risk
 

Kronos147

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Welcome to the cove.

ISO is working to make all the standards easier to encompass under one system definition (or one manual if that makes it easier to think of). There is nothing to stop an organization from doing that now.

For each standard, read the stuff before the requirements. A lot. It's great info that usually gets glossed over.

You are asking for advice. Here is mine, take it with a grain of salt.
1) It's your system. If what you actually do works for you, make the paper system reflect that

2) Keep it simple

3) Process based. Don't over do this one. NDT, welding, management/QC, ..., and focus on those processes with respect to the requirements.

If all standards require control of documents and records, 1 procedure will suffice...
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Opportunity in ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
D Reports under change management | ISO 13485:2016 & ISO 9001:2015 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
K Integrating ISO 9001:2015 with ISO 17025:2017 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
R Remote Audits for ISO 9001 (or any other standard) General Auditing Discussions 29
T Relationship between ISO 9001 and ISO – IEC BS EN 870079- 34 2020 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
S Sequence of ISO 9001:2015 Implementation Steps ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
qualprod Business Continuity Planning in ISO 9001? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Brizilla Employee Data Privacy Policy - ISO 9001:2015 requirement(s)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
S ISO 9001:2015 Internal Auditing Internal Auditing 8
Q Process: Knowledge Section 7.1.6 of ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
P ISO 9001 certification with zero customers? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
A What must be recorded? (ISO 9001:2015, subclause 10.2) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
B Updated IATF 16949 - Will IATF 16949 get revised when ISO 9001:202X is released? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
S ISO 9001:2015 vs 21 CFR Part 211 matrix Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 0
S ISO 9001 implementation in a Gold exporting business ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
M Does the ISO 9001:2015 standard require a disaster recovery plan or emergency response plan ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
A Tips and Tricks to understand ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
M ISO 9001 Major Nonconformance Internal Audit Schedule/COVID-19 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
B ISO 9001 - "Remote Audit Fee" Registrars and Notified Bodies 13
John C. Abnet ISO 9001 4.4.1 "...shall determine the processes needed..." ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 72
S ISO 9001 Clause 8.2.3 - Review of the requirements for products and services in a Cafe ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
D ISO 9001 certificate issued by QMS International for 10 years - legit? Registrars and Notified Bodies 17
S Thoughts on managing ISO 9001, 13485, IATF 16949 and 17025 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 33
M ISO 9001:2015 and AS6081:2012 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
C Implementation ISO 9001: 2015 ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
eule del ayre Documented Information - Periodic Review of Documents? IATF 16949:2016 / ISO 9001:2015 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 34
J Audit Checklist for Integrated Management System for ISO 9001:2015, ISO 14001 & OHSAS18001 (IMS) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
G National Structural Steel Specification 7th Edition - Do I now have to be audited against ISO 3843-3 as well as ISO 9001? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
lanley liao How to understand the clause 6 Planning of ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
J Sister-company providing parts is only ISO 9001 registered IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
G Copy of withdrawn ISO 9001:1994 Quality Management Standard ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
A Does ISO 9001:2015 cover all the requirements of ISO 10012:2003? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
G Logistic organization and controls - IATF/ISO 9001 audit Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
J Scope of ISO 9001 clause 10.2 in the product life cycle ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
T ISO 9001 8.5.2. - Identification and traceability to Identify Outputs - Services ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
T ISO 9001:2015 - Small Shop ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
M ISO 9001:2015 case study sample ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
M Sample of Nonconformity report for ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
Q ISO 9001 8.5.1 - Control of production and service performance ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
M Case study help as per ISO 9001: 2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
M Case study solution help required as per ISO 9001 : 2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
A Refusal to discuss ISO 9001 obligations... what to do? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
B Can we be ISO 9001 certified without a physical office? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
S Documenting Design Verification Test Results (ISO 9001) Design and Development of Products and Processes 1
L Combining 3 ISO 9001 registrations into 1 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
BeaBea ISO 9001 Customer Feedback Methods - What has worked for your company? Service Industry Specific Topics 17
G New to ISO 9001 - Where to begin? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
BeaBea Interesting Discussion Where Does Marketing/ Advertisement of Products fit in to ISO 9001? Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 39
F Logistics and IT clauses in ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 15
qualprod Automation in manufacturing - Print Shop ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13

Similar threads

Top Bottom