ISO 9001 Job Descriptions and Other Templates / Forms

#41
19011

The ISO 10011 series, and I suspect the ISO 19011 series is/will be guidance documents only. Good thing they don’t have to be followed. Sometime read up on auditor selection. I don’t think it would work well for small company internal auditors. I know of one union shop that has auditors bid on the job, like all other union slots, but I have never heard of a company convening a board to review the auditor qualifications. (If anyone wants, I’ll dig up my 10011 and quote the standard.)

Do what makes sense. 6.2.2 does require competency for internal auditors (if they affect product quality – a political decision?)
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
B

Bruce Wade

#42
db,

Good point, well taken.

ISO 19011 will indeed be published as a "guidance" document. I will consider your point that: "they don’t have to be followed". However, I also keep a copy of ISO 9004:2000 around for "guidance" and find it quite helpful in CYA situations...

I am only suggesting that it will be easier to demonstrate to registrars and interested third parties that we have taken the "training, awareness and competency" requirements of IAs, et al. seriously, with some "benchmark" documents that describe our interpretation of the KSAs required for proper completion of the tasks required by positions directly affecting or directing functions required by the standard, and the documentation in which we ascert the individuals involved meet or exceed the relevant criteria...

I am not suggesting formal "job descriptions" are required. I only suggest statements of competency regarding tasks needed to perform functions required by the standard, and documentation the individuals involved are judged competent to perform these tasks would be useful.
 
J

JodiB

#43
Re: To describe, or not describe...that is the question.

Originally posted by db
Lucinda,

quote:
At this point, you have not documented anything…yet you have met the first three requirements. I will submit that the normal production records will suffice as the “appropriate” records. The do, in fact, demonstrate that the first three requirements have been met. You have met the requirements (for this operation) without any additional documentation and paper generation.

I'm not arguing, just splainin.
I don't believe that you have met the first three requirements if I don't see where you "determined" and to what you "determined" against.

And some of my best buddies (who are registrar auditors) won't either. This is one of the very first things we argued over! ( I tried to use the same rationale that you just did) They managed to "make me see the light". And before you rag on registrar assessors, I "saw the light" because I believe they were right in saying I needed objective evidence of each step.

The simple fact of employing someone doesn't mean that they are competent. The fact that they survive in your org also doesn't mean they are competent. Add to that, the fact that someone has to define "competent" ! AND further, since it has to be "objective evidence" meaning that others must see it the same way, then it needs to be written since interpretation of competence and necessary skills is highly subjective.

So if you've convinced your assessor that this is sufficient than you're golden! Don't rock the boat.
 
#44
How much is enough?

quote:

Originally quoted by Lucinda
“I don't believe that you have met the first three requirements if I don't see where you "determined" and to what you "determined" against.”
------------------------------------------------

In my overly simplistic welding scenario, the customers demand a “good” weld. The competency requirement would be that my welder be able to perform a satisfactory weld. Are you saying that this is not a determination of competency? How would putting the same thing in writing make the “determination”? How much detail is required before “determination” is established? The only “documentation” requirement is maintaining appropriate records.

This may sound disingenuous (I have no idea what that word means, but as a “Ditto head”, I have to use Rush phrases whenever I can), but I am also posting a rather complex method of meeting most of 6.2.2. The reason I can say on one hand that documentation is not necessary, but on the other offer a process that has a great deal of documentation is I firmly believe that the level of documentation needs to be driven by organizational needs, not because of some outside influence. I guess that is where my heartburn lies with your comments.

Most auditors I know are hard working, level headed folks. Unfortunately, I have had to deal with unreasonable auditors that seem more interested in companies matching the auditor’s expectations, as apposed to having a QMS that works. I have several small business clients that use the paperless system and it works, and their auditors have no problem with it. A good auditor will quickly be able to tell if you are avoiding paper because it doesn’t make sense, or if you are just trying to avoid things.
 
#45
Skills Management Process

I’ve worked with several companies to establish a Skills Management Program (SMP). The SMP is a fours step process, and to describe it may make this a long post. The four steps are:
1) Identify necessary skills
2) Identify incumbent’s skills
3) Develop and Individual Training Program (ITP)
4) Periodical review

These sound simplistic, and could be. In the cases where I applied SMP it often became a learning tool, sometimes with some associated pain. This process works best in larger operations, where numerous individuals perform the same function.

Step 1 – Identify the necessary skills. This is task/operation-based. At this level, we would have the incumbent, the incumbent’s supervisor, and the incumbent’s subordinates (if applicable) fill out a questionnaire where they outlined the skills needed for that particular operation/task. We would compile the results and put them in a list. Then we would bring them together and discuss the list. This is where the pain would usually show up as different levels had different ideas of the skills required by other levels. The output would be a matrix of positions and skills.

Step 2 – Identify incumbent’s skills. Once again, we would send questionnaires to the same folks. This time we would rate the incumbent in each required skill on a scale of 1-5, with one being “haven’t heard of it” to five being “able to teach others”. We compile the results and go to step 3.

Step 3 – Develop the ITP. Taking the results from step 2, we would meet with the incumbent and the supervisor to discuss the results. This step usually began with some active dialog centered on interpretations of the results. Part of the output would be to list the gaps between the required skills and the incumbent’s skills. Once that was established, a plan would be developed to fill the gaps.

Step 4 – On a yearly basis, the supervisor and the incumbent would meet to discuss the ITP. The ITP would be updated to reflect any changes in the required skills, skills obtained, and opportunities for advancement.

The SMP is a rather intense process, with a lot of initial work. Once at step 4, the required effort is not nearly as daunting. Smaller versions could work for simpler, or smaller operations.
 
J

JodiB

#46
I like it

This is pretty much what I envisioned using here, and you have spelled it out nicely in words so that when I present it to my boss I don't have to do it myself!:)

But I do differ in whether levels of competence and skills required need to be documented.

To provide objective evidence, bias has to be removed. If you are going to rely on the returns from your customers to be the measure of the competence of your welder, then there are two problems : 1) you are using the bias of your customer in what he considers "satisfactory" rather than establishing your own (and each customer will have a different threshhold for acceptance so your results will be skewed and not attributable to the employee directly) and 2) as the standard notes, the absence of complaint does not imply satisfaction. There could be plenty of "unsatisfactory" welds out there that are undiscovered or accepted without formal complaint.

I know this will detract from my "scholarly" reply above, but what the heck. Here's quality mgt on the home front :

My daughter thinks that she does a "competent" job cleaning the kitchen at night. Her allowance depends on my agreement. But I have a different opinion of what constitutes a clean kitchen (many long arguments). And my husband has another opinion besides! Result: an agreed task list and a nightly performance review. Documented of course, on a calendar.:vfunny:
 

E Wall

Just Me!
Super Moderator
#47
Question for db

Just hoping to offer something here not open a can of worms :)
I'm not sure what you are welding, but isn't there some strength/pressure psi that can be applied which can be measured by a gauge?

This would remove the bias, but I also know there may be some situations where this wouldn't work (like circuit boards).

Just a thought...Eileen
 
F

Fire Girl

#48
Confused?

I don't understand what a guage for the welding equipment has to do with competence of your welder???

I think we need to set criteria for how we "audit" the welding. I think it was Lucinda that said something about setting criteria. Well, I agree.

FG
 
J

Jim Biz

#49
Food For thought

Our welder Job descripts. contained a line stating the criteria

"Ability to pass periodic weld tests".

Our Prodecures state no one is allowed to preform weld application activity until successful completion of outside weld ability assessment is onfile.

While there are many other approaches to this we have yet to be questioned by an External auditor.
 
E

energy

#50
Re: Food For thought

Originally posted by Jim Biz
Our welder Job descripts. contained a line stating the criteria

"Ability to pass periodic weld tests".

Our Prodecures state no one is allowed to preform weld application activity until successful completion of outside weld ability assessment is onfile.

While there are many other approaches to this we have yet to be questioned by an External auditor.
Yea but,
There are many types of welding. For example: Oxygen Gas Welding (OFW), Shielded Metal-Arc Welding (SMAW), Semiautomatic Submerged Arc Welding (SAW), Semiautomatic Gas Metal-Arc Welding (GMAW), Manual and Semiautomatic Gas Tungsten-Arc Welding (GTAW), Manual and Semiautomatic Plasma-Arc Welding (PAW). There is also Electron beam, stud, friction welding.

Some types of welds are Groove, Fillet, Special Position and stud weld positions.

Welder qualification is limited by the essential variables given for each process. A welder or welding operator may be qualified by radiography of a test coupon, radiography of his/her initial production welding, or by bend tests taken from a test coupon.

The performance qualification tests are intended to determine the ability of welders to make sound welds.

Have a great weekend. Leave Jessica alone.
:vfunny: :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
I ISO 9001:2015 - On the Job Training and Records Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
S Minor Nonconformity for Lack of Job Descriptions in ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 62
B On The Job Training (OJT) requirements in ISO 9001:2008 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
D ISO 9001 Clause 6.2.2 - Training Records, a Job Skills Matrix and Job Descriptions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 30
K Job Shop - Registering to AS9100 vs. ISO 9001 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 27
Z Job Descriptions - Are job descriptions a requirement of ISO 9001:2008? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
D Preparing a job description that meets the ISO 9001:2008 standard requirements ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
M ISO 9001 Audit Concern about Written Job Scope & Responsibility for Employee? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
H Audit Segregation by Product - ISO 9001 & AS 9100 in a small machine (job) shop AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
T Mexico Job Shop - ISO 9001 Certification Planning ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S Evidence of Effectiveness of OJT (On the Job Training) - ISO 9001 Clause 6.2.2 Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 24
J Small Machine Shop - No process planning or job scheduling - ISO 9001 Implementation ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
T Job Descriptions - Is a yearly review of job descriptions required by ISO 9001? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 19
A Is ISO 9001 implementation a specialist (consultant) job? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
M ISO 9001 vs. QS9000 vs. ISO 14001 - Job interview tomorrow night for a QM position Career and Occupation Discussions 4
A Is there a ISO 9001:2000 Requirement for Job descriptions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
M ISO 9001 Truck Transportation Position (Job) Description Career and Occupation Discussions 1
T What is the Value of ISO 9001 Certification? Assessors don't do 'their job' Registrars and Notified Bodies 6
chris1price Archiving of paper records - ISO 9001 7.5.3.1b Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 2
D Common practices in ISO 9001 deployment ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
P Audit check for IT company (ISO 9001) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
Q Do these certificates of calibration meet ISO 9001 requirements for traceability to NIST? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
C Requirement to link Quality Manual to ISO 9001 clause numbers? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 13
W First time being audited (ISO 9001), asking for advice ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Q ISO 9001 - Reseller Exclusions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
N ISO 9001 - Training business with fewer than 5 employees ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
J Opportunity in ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 27
D Reports under change management | ISO 13485:2016 & ISO 9001:2015 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
K Integrating ISO 9001:2015 with ISO 17025:2017 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
R Remote Audits for ISO 9001 (or any other standard) General Auditing Discussions 31
T Relationship between ISO 9001 and ISO – IEC BS EN 870079- 34 2020 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
S Sequence of ISO 9001:2015 Implementation Steps ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
qualprod Business Continuity Planning in ISO 9001? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Brizilla Employee Data Privacy Policy - ISO 9001:2015 requirement(s)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
S ISO 9001:2015 Internal Auditing Internal Auditing 8
Q Process: Knowledge Section 7.1.6 of ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
P ISO 9001 certification with zero customers? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
A What must be recorded? (ISO 9001:2015, subclause 10.2) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
B Updated IATF 16949 - Will IATF 16949 get revised when ISO 9001:202X is released? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
S ISO 9001:2015 vs 21 CFR Part 211 matrix Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 0
S ISO 9001 implementation in a Gold exporting business ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
M Does the ISO 9001:2015 standard require a disaster recovery plan or emergency response plan ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
A Tips and Tricks to understand ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
M ISO 9001 Major Nonconformance Internal Audit Schedule/COVID-19 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
B ISO 9001 - "Remote Audit Fee" Registrars and Notified Bodies 13
John C. Abnet ISO 9001 4.4.1 "...shall determine the processes needed..." ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 72
S ISO 9001 Clause 8.2.3 - Review of the requirements for products and services in a Cafe ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
D ISO 9001 certificate issued by QMS International for 10 years - legit? Registrars and Notified Bodies 17

Similar threads

Top Bottom