ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't?

[AndyN]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

The original intent of the audit was to detect weaknesses in the QMS that were in need of "shoring up", to improve the effectiveness of the QMS. Now, many auditors speak about "auditing for compliance, not noncompliance".

Really? Where did that come from?

My understanding has (always) been that the purpose of internal audit was to confirm for management - through a set of unbiased eyes - if the qms was being implemented,as planned. The proclivity for people to attended Lead Auditor courses since the early 1990s has corrupted this, IMHO! Lead auditor courses teach evaluation of suppliers for some form of award, in the main, be it a certificate or a PO award.

 

[Randy]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Good points all around! This has been an ongoing debate since the Standard was released in 1987.

The original intent of the audit was to detect weaknesses in the QMS that were in need of "shoring up", to improve the effectiveness of the QMS. Now, many auditors speak about "auditing for compliance, not noncompliance".

In my personal experience as a CEO, Plant Manager, and consultant, is to view nonconformities and audit findings as opportunities to improve. Indeed, if my QMS is audited and the auditor(s) do not report any findings, I question their auditing ability - no QMS is perfect. All can be improved and I expect the auditor(s) to find ways to improve mine - what value do I receive from an audit report with no findings? I expect to obtain some value from the audit experience, which is an improved QMS!

I apologize for getting dangerously close to a lecture, there, but this subject has always "raised my Irish"!!

Thanks for all the great ideas and opinions!!

You are so incorrect on a variety of levels. (I'll just do 2 of them)

#1...The purpose of the internal audit is most clearly stated in 8.2.2 and it is...

8.2.2 Internal audit
The organization shall conduct internal audits management system

a) conforms to the planned arrangements (see the quality management system requirements

b) is effectively implemented and maintained.

Nowhere is it stated that weakness is to be looked for. It is the detected lack of conformance when it is identified through a representative sampling process we find weakness. If our quest for weakness was the intent then I would argue at this ponit we need go no further than top management and the weakness in awareness of the requirements for their own management system which would have the potential to become pandemic across the organization

#2.... The word "finding" is also being used incorrectly....A "finding"is the result of evaluating evidence found during an audit against the criteria of the audit and could demonstrate conformance, nonconformity or opportunities for improvement...Check it out in ISO 19011:2002 . If an auditor has no "findings" then I question wheteher or not an audit was actually performed because in the end you gotta come up with something.

I'll stop before this turns into a lecture.................

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

If I work in a molding process, then there may be some things that I don't see that someone not as involved in the process as I might detect. Moving me to a similar process may result in me still missing the same sort of things.

Then, I'd suggest that a competency evaluation - which should have been performed - needs to be revisited...

 

[pthareja]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

I agree to the fact that one should not audit one's own (quality) process but at the same time if the process does have some environmental aspects, the EMS part (but not the QMS) of this process can be audited by an auditor who is although, not independent of this process, yet demonstrates (or can demonstrate) 'objectivity & impartiality' to his/her own process.

Auditing of both QMS and EMS is covered by auditing standard ISO 19011.

In the Samsung's view, I believe, it's cognizance to metrics. If Rules and measures are defined, then one can easily distinguish between a counterfeit coin and a dime!

Priyavrat Thareja

 

[samsung]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Auditing of both QMS and EMS is covered by auditing standard ISO 19011.

In the Samsung's view, I believe, it's cognizance to metrics. If Rules and measures are defined, then one can easily distinguish between a counterfeit coin and a dime!

Priyavrat Thareja

19011 is a guidance document for auditing whereas requirements are prescribed by the standards and the two under discussion differ to a certain extent although they are based on the same management principles.

Still I couldn't precisely follow your second statement.

 

[pthareja]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

it's cognizance to metrics. If Rules and measures are defined, then one can easily distinguish between a counterfeit coin and a dime!

Priyavrat Thareja

I couldn't precisely follow your second statement.Samsung

if Rules of the game are well defined, decision taking becomes simpler

 

[amanbhai]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

The same question I have raised during my ISO/ IEC 17025:2005 Lead auditor course. Auditing requirements are that auditor can not audit his own work.
The reason behind is that no two organizations are same, some organizations are smaller ......... there are tests which are very special and we don't have the 2nd person who could audit this specific test.
The response from the trainer was.......... the lab (organization) shall arrange internal auditor from other organizations.

 

[samsung]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

if Rules of the game are well defined, decision taking becomes simpler

Though the rules (requirements) in all the standards are clearly defined yet it's 9001 only that clearly prohibits auditing our 'own work' whereas other standards clearly don't. Does it suggest one can audit one's own work relating to EMS or OHS?

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Though the rules (requirements) in all the standards are clearly defined yet it's 9001 only that clearly prohibits auditing our 'own work' whereas other standards clearly don't. Does it suggest one can audit one's own work relating to EMS or OHS?

Are we over thinking this? All of the standards require objectivity and impartiality. Perhaps we can just ask ourselves: " Are there any situations where you are auditing your own work when you can be objective / impartial?"

FWIW my answer to the question is "No."

 

[Dean Frederickson]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

So I guess if we have 2 internal auditors neither of us can audit the internal audits we have completed over the past 3 years, is this right? I understand that we can't audit our own work but could I audit the audits the other auditor has completed and vice-versa?