ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't?

[John Martinez]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

How about something that is NOT guidance....ISO 9000:2005

"3.9 Terms relating to audit
3.9.1 audit - systematic, independent and documented process (3.4.1) for obtaining audit evidence (3.9.4) and evaluating it objectively to determine the extent to which audit criteria (3.9.3) are fulfilled

NOTE 1 Internal audits, sometimes called first-party audits, are conducted by, or on behalf of, the organization (3.3.1) itself for management review and other internal purposes, and may form the basis for an organization’s declaration of conformity (3.6.1). In many cases, particularly in smaller organizations, independence can be demonstrated by the freedom from responsibility for the activity being audited."

...It's not hard folks. ISO 9000:2005 is a very valuable tool and most organizations do not even know it exists.

 

[Randy]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

How about something that is NOT guidance....ISO 9000:2005

"3.9 Terms relating to audit
3.9.1 audit - systematic, independent and documented process (3.4.1) for obtaining audit evidence (3.9.4) and evaluating it objectively to determine the extent to which audit criteria (3.9.3) are fulfilled

NOTE 1 Internal audits, sometimes called first-party audits, are conducted by, or on behalf of, the organization (3.3.1) itself for management review and other internal purposes, and may form the basis for an organization’s declaration of conformity (3.6.1). In many cases, particularly in smaller organizations, independence can be demonstrated by the freedom from responsibility for the activity being audited."

...It's not hard folks.

It says "can be" not "must or shall be"

 

[John Martinez]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

It says "can be" not "must or shall be"

Yes, but enough to counter the person's certification body auditor. If being audited to ISO 9001:2008, then the definition in ISO 9000:2005 rules over the CB auditor's opinion.

 

[Randy]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Yes, but enough to counter the person's certification body auditor. If being audited to ISO 9001:2008, then the definition in ISO 9000:2005 rules over the CB auditor's opinion.

The auditor shouldn't have an opinion to begin with

 

[Richard Pike]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

What means responsible? The CEO is responsible for the overall running of an organisation. Who is brave enough to suggest they cannot audit wherever they wish.

We (auditors) get to bogged down in semantics instead of looking at "effectiveness"

When push comes to shove - I use the guideline - if the Proceedure or documentation / WI / Process / whatever states that xyz person is "responsible" then I try to avoid that person auditing that particular action.

However- as quite rightly stated - sometimes this is not possible - therefore I must pay more attention and ensure that the audit is effective. i.e. make sure no bias, make sure no "snow blindness" etc etc.

To take the example to the extreme - they are many one person businesses - ISO 9001 certified. They do there own audits. One particularly stupid auditor said no no you must outsource - and then "further outsource" the audit of the internal audit function.

Just ask the question - have I assessed the risks in conducting the audit? (and acted accordingly)

 

[John Martinez]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

What means responsible?

Since it has not been defined by TC 176, it is left to the auditor to determine. I was only quoting ISO 9000:2005 directly.

 

[John Martinez]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

The auditor shouldn't have an opinion to begin with

I have seen my share of opinionated, and I add, incompetent third party auditors. And I also know that the company looking to be certified will do what the auditor states, rather than challenge such opinions.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

The auditor shouldn't have an opinion to begin with

Al auditors have opinions, but the good ones keep those to themselves.

Stijloor.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Yup! We're definitely overthinking this one. Auditors need to be independent and impartial. So long as we are comfortable that the auditor is giving an honest assessment of the process they are auditing we should be happy 'defending' it to an external auditor. End of ...

Of course we could carry on going round the houses dealing with a whole load of hypothetical instances when someone might question our impartiality / independence

.... or we could do some useful work!

 

[John Martinez]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Of course we could carry on going round the houses dealing with a whole load of hypothetical instances when someone might question our impartiality / independence

.... or we could do some useful work!

I normally work to the norm, and handle the exception when I get to them. You know, that open minded thing in ISO 19011?