ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't?

[Richard Pike]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

How about something that is NOT guidance....ISO 9000:2005

Oh Dear:

When an auditor doesn't know the diff between a guidance Doc and a standard ????? then what chance do they have of interpreting anything .. whoops

 

[Richard Pike]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

I have seen my share of opinionated, and I add, incompetent third party auditors. And I also know that the company looking to be certified will do what the auditor states, rather than challenge such opinions.

Only companies with weak knee'd incompetent Management Reps (quality managers) or heavens worse "con sultants"

 

[Crackhead]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

ISO 9001 and ISO 19011 contradict each other. You will be able to exclude this clause if you can proof that you do not have the internal auditor to do the job. eg. You are the person responsible for the system, no one was else in the company was trained to perform this audit.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

ISO 9001 and ISO 19011 contradict each other.

Hi, Crackhead (!) and welcome to the Cove. Can you just confirm which parts of the two standards contradict.

I must confess I regularly work with both and don't know of any contradictions.

You will be able to exclude this clause if you can proof that you do not have the internal auditor to do the job. eg. You are the person responsible for the system, no one was else in the company was trained to perform this audit.

So, again for my benefit - what clause will we be able to exclude?

Presumably you are saying that only having one trained auditor means they can do all the audits on the company?

 

[Crackhead]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Hi Boriss,

I also work with them all, ISO 9001:2008 state that you will not audit your work, however in the previous standard; :2005 and :2000 they had were possible. ISO 19011 state you will not audit your work, where possible.

I went through audit / assessment where this point was discussed at length.

Some companies just do have the capacity to have specialist internal auditors.

Thanx for welcome note.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Hi Boriss,

I also work with them all, ISO 9001:2008 state that you will not audit your work, however in the previous standard; :2005 and :2000 they had were possible.

From memory the requirement for auditor independence is unchanged from the 2000 edition to the 2008 edition of 9001. Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong ?

The 2005 edition is of ISO 9000. I don't have a copy of this standard at work but certainly in the working draft of the 2011 edition the only mention of auditor independence is in the Note to the definition of an audit:

audit
systematic, independent and documented process ( ) for obtaining audit evidence ( ) and evaluating it objectively to determine the extent to which audit criteria ( ) are fulfilled

and the Note is:

NOTE 1 Internal audits, sometimes called first-party audits, are conducted by, or on behalf of, the organization ( ) itself for management review and other internal purposes, and may form the basis for an organization’s declaration of conformity ( ). In many cases, particularly in smaller organizations, independence can be demonstrated by the freedom from responsibility for the activity being audited.

ISO 19011 state you will not audit your work, where possible.

Again I have the working draft of the 2011 edition but I believe the requirement is unchanged:

6.3.2 Assigning work to the audit team
The audit team leader, in consultation with the audit team, should assign to each team member responsibility for auditing specific processes, functions, sites, areas or activities. Such assignments should take into account the
need for the independence and competence .....

As a guidance standard it does not place any requirements above and beyond the management system standard (ISO 9001 in this case).

I went through audit / assessment where this point was discussed at length.

Unfortunately sometimes on audit and assessment you get to hear a lot of the opinion of an auditor without having to deal with the facts in each case.

Some companies just do have the capacity to have specialist internal auditors.

Some companies have the capability and for the smaller organizations the CB can turn a blind eye to the requirement for independence when the 'spirit' of independence is applied.

[Thanx for welcome note.

Pleasure!

 

[samsung]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

So far it has been a good discussion with lots of valuable inputs. After giving a lot of thoughts to the issue under discussion I have come up with the following conclusion:

- Within a QMS, there are (business) processes ‘owned’ by process ‘owners’ who can claim something as their ‘own work’ and that’s probably what ISO 9001 talks of.

- In 14K & 18K, there are no such processes; means the organizations aren’t set up simply for the sake of managing environmental aspects and controlling OHS risks (no business, no aspects /risks). Infact these are the ‘unintended outputs’ generated while producing the ‘intended output’ from a process ‘owned’ by someone.

- But there are people responsible or accountable for managing /controlling the env. Aspects and OHS risks and if those persons audit what they themselves are responsible to manage, they would not possibly ensure impartiality and objectivity. Hence these two standards omit the requirement of (not) auditing one’s own work but require that objectivity and impartiality be ensured..

Is it logical to think on these lines?

Please share your opinion and thoughts on the above.

Thanks.

 

[Felix Moore]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

Samsung, thanks for your posts in this topic. I agree it's been an interesting discussion. I also agree with your conclusions, and would point to a previous post (forget who) which suggested we look to the principle intended by the standard rather than nit-picking about certain wording.

 

[Richard Pike]

Re: ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't

- Within a QMS, there are (business) processes ‘owned’ by process ‘owners’ who can claim something as their ‘own work’ and that’s probably what ISO 9001 talks of.

- In 14K & 18K, there are no such processes; means the organizations aren’t set up simply for the sake of managing environmental aspects and controlling OHS risks (no business, no aspects /risks).

Thanks.

Interesting Point. Lets hope that there are no organisations set up to simply comply with the quality requirements of ISO 9001.

If the procedure / WI or whatever gives the responsibility for an action to somebody then UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES whoever has been allocated that responsibility should avoid auditing what they are responsible to carry out.

As with all ISO issues; the organisation should justify why that interpretation is not applicable to them. If they can justify, and still demonstrate that the requirement is being met effectively and efficiently then thats an end to it.

If they cannot demonstrate that it is effective and efficient then --to me-- its an obvious non-conformance.

 

[skb76]

All

its old issue, but I need opinion to counter iso9001:2015 INTERNAL AUDIT (9.2)
~prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work'

We are very small firm - and I'm the only staff have the VALID internal audit certification.

But the external auditor NOT approve that my the other staff audit me on 9.2clause
~even I proved to them the staff have given internal training (by me) course for this issue (9.2)

Of course easy answer (send another staff for official Internal Audit training);
BUT as I mentioned earlier we are small firm the above answer wont be happen!

So, do guys have any ideas for me to counter this issue

thanks in advance