ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't?

[AMIT BALLAL]

All

its old issue, but I need opinion to counter iso9001:2015 INTERNAL AUDIT (9.2)
~prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work'

We are very small firm - and I'm the only staff have the VALID internal audit certification.

But the external auditor NOT approve that my the other staff audit me on 9.2clause
~even I proved to them the staff have given internal training (by me) course for this issue (9.2)

Of course easy answer (send another staff for official Internal Audit training);
BUT as I mentioned earlier we are small firm the above answer wont be happen!

So, do guys have any ideas for me to counter this issue

thanks in advance

Refer following link to a similar thread. I hope it helps.

Internal Audits in a tiny Dx Company

 

[Randy]

All

its old issue, but I need opinion to counter iso9001:2015 INTERNAL AUDIT (9.2)
~prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work'

We are very small firm - and I'm the only staff have the VALID internal audit certification.

But the external auditor NOT approve that my the other staff audit me on 9.2clause
~even I proved to them the staff have given internal training (by me) course for this issue (9.2)

Of course easy answer (send another staff for official Internal Audit training);
BUT as I mentioned earlier we are small firm the above answer wont be happen!

So, do guys have any ideas for me to counter this issue

thanks in advance

Answer? Yep, that auditor has to show you where it's absolutely required in 9001...........He won't.

The audit has to be done in an objective and impartial fashion, so unless it can be shown that you're a liar, cheat and have no ethics or honesty about you, in the end, there's nothing absolutely saying you're wrong in doing the audit.

Recommended? Not really........ But wrong? Not really either

 

[Cari Spears]

All

its old issue, but I need opinion to counter iso9001:2015 INTERNAL AUDIT (9.2)
~prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work'

We are very small firm - and I'm the only staff have the VALID internal audit certification.

But the external auditor NOT approve that my the other staff audit me on 9.2clause
~even I proved to them the staff have given internal training (by me) course for this issue (9.2)

Of course easy answer (send another staff for official Internal Audit training);
BUT as I mentioned earlier we are small firm the above answer wont be happen!

So, do guys have any ideas for me to counter this issue

thanks in advance

If your auditor is saying training isn't "valid" or "official" because you provided the training in-house, that is not correct. He should be evaluating your internal auditors' competency by looking at their audit outputs. There is no requirement for sending people out for internal audit training.

I create and provide the in-house internal auditor training for our company.

 

[Hendor]

All

its old issue, but I need opinion to counter iso9001:2015 INTERNAL AUDIT (9.2)
~prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work'

We are very small firm - and I'm the only staff have the VALID internal audit certification.

But the external auditor NOT approve that my the other staff audit me on 9.2clause
~even I proved to them the staff have given internal training (by me) course for this issue (9.2)

Of course easy answer (send another staff for official Internal Audit training);
BUT as I mentioned earlier we are small firm the above answer wont be happen!

So, do guys have any ideas for me to counter this issue

thanks in advance

Hello [U]skb76[/U]
The organization defines the competencies or training that its auditors must comply with. They can be external or internal training, (and in this case your certificate and you can transmit the knowledge)

Include in your internal training a method to assess the degree of understanding of the participants.

Most importantly, nowhere does ISO 9001 require internal auditors to be certified by an external agency. (only that you have it written like that, that is, it is a specific requirement of your customer)

It only complies with 7.2 Competence, a), b) and c)

Additional in 9.2.2 is the Note see ISO 19011 for guidance, I share a fraction of 4 principles of auditing:

 

[Randy]

Hello [U]skb76[/U]
The organization defines the competencies or training that its auditors must comply with. They can be external or internal training, (and in this case your certificate and you can transmit the knowledge)

Include in your internal training a method to assess the degree of understanding of the participants.

Most importantly, nowhere does ISO 9001 require internal auditors to be certified by an external agency. (only that you have it written like that, that is, it is a specific requirement of your customer)

It only complies with 7.2 Competence, a), b) and c)

Additional in 9.2.2 is the Note see ISO 19011 for guidance, I share a fraction of 4 principles of auditing:

View attachment 27123

If you notice it says should, not shall, must or will, it's a guide to either use or ignore

 

[mishab123]

I would love to hear what others think about this situation! I work for a large org that has distinct departments. I was helping out a different department with their initial ISO 9001:2015 cert. I attended the internal auditor training that was offered, but I already had my certs for 9001 and 14001. I currently run my department's Internal audit program(14001) and help out the QMR with planning and training.
I was invited to the closing meeting and the external auditor issued a nonconformance because "internal auditors cannot perform the audit on internal audit" as this is a conflict. He went on to say that any employee that had auditor training could not audit the internal audit process, that the manager (who didn't attend the training) would have the skill set necessary for performing it. Anybody working under the scope of their QMS is not eligible. The 'QMR' is the process owner for this particular audit, I happened to be the auditor in question!
I argued that:
1-Internal auditors must be deemed competent to perform audits. Therefore the manager wouldn't be qualified to perform internal audits.
2-That myself and any other auditor that is not part of the QMR team should be eligible to perform that audit.
3-That I don't even work for that department! I did go to their training but already was certified. He said that any of the managers or even someone from the outside could do it. (See #1)
4-I've been auditing for ISO 9001, 14001 and ISO 17025 for over 10 years and had NEVER heard this argument before,
Now this external auditor is not new to the game and I didn't feel comfortable speaking at their closing. There were a couple other items where I was thinking-Nope! No requirement for that, but this audit thing had my heart racing.
I apologize for my long-winded question-Have any of you heard of a nonconformance being issued because a competent auditor (per their procedure) and/or that a manager is simply qualified with no training? I appreciate your response-I'm really struggling with this one.
Thanks-Mich

 

[John Broomfield]

From what you say it seems that you are disputing an auditor’s nonconformity statement so we need to know:

A. What is the nature of the claimed nonconformity?
B. What requirement has not been fulfilled?
C. What is the stated evidence of the claimed nonconformity?

Then we should be able to help.

 

[Randy]

You might possibly be a victim of what's been called "quota" ... Apparently some CB's have been reported and complaints filed for assigning a KPI for NC's per day to audit staff. (I'm thinking this was discussed here in the forum someplace already)

I've already voiced my thought's about the internal auditor conflict and offer up the same opinion....Auditors being 100% restricted from auditing their own work or within a common work area is prohibitive, restrictive, and discriminatory towards smaller organizations..... Totally against the concept of equal.

 

[mishab123]

Thanks for the input! I haven’t seen the written report yet. Going off my notes from the closing. I can’t wait to see it because he had a few other NCs that didn’t feel right to me. I’m just worried that if they don’t dispute any because it’s their initial external audit that these ‘extra’ requirements will be built into their system.

 

[Mike S.]

I was invited to the closing meeting and the external auditor issued a nonconformance because "internal auditors cannot perform the audit on internal audit" as this is a conflict.

Hearing this gives me deja vu all over again.

In a previous job I worked at we had an auditor claim this. The company caved and did it the auditor's way despite my objections and those of people higher in rank than me. It's BS, IMO. The company had one internal auditor who did only one audit -- the audit on the internal audit process, to satisfy the auditor.

Another registrar auditor I asked about this said, in his opinion, an internal auditor could audit the internal audit process and other processes so long as they were qualified and did not report directly to the process owner.

I like Randy's interpretation best of all, but he is not our auditor.