ISO 9001 Qualified Auditor and Internal TS Auditor Requirements

[qusys]

To provide the list of the qualified internal auditors to be ready in a phase-1 ISO TS certification audit is included into IATF rules, in addition to other items

This is also not true - unless you're talking about a specific Certification Body's requirements or one particular auditor's bias........

 

[db]

I do not put in doubt your experience, AndyN.
I have had experiences in some projects to achieve ISO TS certification for my organizations and in both cases the registrar auditors wanted to see qualifications for internal auditors with a certificate as well as with on the field experience and know how on audit techniques and quality tools , in addition to the knowledge of Customer requirements to audit them internally across the organization. On the contrary, this could carry to a non conformance in an audit.

Once again, this may be due to CSR (particularly Ford). Other than that, any auditor would be hard pressed to show me the exact requirement for specific qualifications of TS internal auditors. I have worked with many companies, and have only had one or two issues with 3rd party auditors on this. I have had a couple that have questioned MY qualifications, however. But once again, "where is the shall?"

 

[AndyN]

To provide the list of the qualified internal auditors to be ready in a phase-1 ISO TS certification audit is included into IATF rules, in addition to other items

You are quite correct. I had overlooked the fact that this is in the TS forum and had only read the title about ISO 9001 auditors - considering that to be the context. My apologies!

I was, aware that the list is a requirement of a stage 1 under TS!

 

[qusys]

Clause 8.2.2.5 says that the organization shall have qualified internal auditors to verify the requirements this technical specification ( see. 6.2.2.2).
This is also the intepretation of many other lead auditors who were our trainers and qualified us after passing the examinations.
Consider that this could also open the way to evaluate the real effectiveness of the internal training for internal auditor in case of not complete knowledge of ISO TS clauses and Customer requirements as well.

At this time we all should agree on this:
In case of no specific customer requirement, is enough for ISO TS internal auditor of an organization to be trained by a (qualified) internal auditor or do they attend a course at a recognised national body, in addition clearly to experience on the field?
What is the objective evidence? The certificate and experience, know how and skills in audit or only to demonstrate ISO TS knowledge with internal training that are not officially recognised?
In my honest opinion, the certificate is the common ground because it is released by recognized body all over the world and a qualification scheme that is worldwide recognised, while internal evulation and qaulfication of internal auditors could be questionable from organization to organization and could be biased by whom who qualified them ( less expert or more expert).
ISO TS is more stringent on this issue with respect ISO 9001.
Excuse me if I was too long

Once again, this may be due to CSR (particularly Ford). Other than that, any auditor would be hard pressed to show me the exact requirement for specific qualifications of TS internal auditors. I have worked with many companies, and have only had one or two issues with 3rd party auditors on this. I have had a couple that have questioned MY qualifications, however. But once again, "where is the shall?"

 

[qusys]

AndyN,
no problem for this
I think to be precise but also humble to correct my post in case of misunderstanding.
I went into depht in all ISO TS clause as well as IATF rules , included all CSR ( like Ford and so on).
ISO TS is more stringent on this, while ISO 9001 is more general for the internal auditors competences.
Again, in ISO TS we found the word " qualfication" that differs from competence.
See my previous post when i replied to the collegue db.
Hope I was clear enough with the language and not create misunderstanding.
We want share the experience to raise ISO TS quality culture in a hystorical moment when quality should play a guiding role, stronger than ever.

You are quite correct. I had overlooked the fact that this is in the TS forum and had only read the title about ISO 9001 auditors - considering that to be the context. My apologies!

I was, aware that the list is a requirement of a stage 1 under TS!

 

[AndyN]

I do not put in doubt your experience, AndyN.
I have had experiences in some projects to achieve ISO TS certification for my organizations and in both cases the registrar auditors wanted to see qualifications for internal auditors with a certificate as well as with on the field experience and know how on audit techniques and quality tools , in addition to the knowledge of Customer requirements to audit them internally across the organization. On the contrary, this could carry to a non conformance in an audit.
At now, we should agree on what qualification means and what competence means.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that my qualifications are in doubt, more that it is based on my experience in the ISO certification world, common and most unnecessary to do things because auditors have a bias or incorrect understanding of so called 'requirements'! Time and time we read here about people who acquiesce to external auditors 'demands'. It is too easy for auditors to ask for 'training records'!

I once had a client written a major finding under ISO/TS 16949 - their only 1 - because they couldn't produce a record of my training as their internal audit trainer! Did the auditors think to look at the internal audit results and records and ask themselves 'Does this client have an effective audit program'? They only had a few minor NC's and they couldn't tell if the internal audits were effective! It's this kind of joke that gives CB's and certification a bad name and I'd venture to suggest that it's not a sample of 1, either!

No! All the sorry individuals could do was write an NC for a piece of meaningless paper!

 

[AndyN]

AndyN,
no problem for this
I think to be precise but also humble to correct my post in case of misunderstanding.
I went into depht in all ISO TS clause as well as IATF rules , included all CSR ( like Ford and so on).
ISO TS is more stringent on this, while ISO 9001 is more general for the internal auditors competences.
Again, in ISO TS we found the word " qualfication" that differs from competence.
See my previous post when i replied to the collegue db.
Hope I was clear enough with the language and not create misunderstanding.
We want share the experience to raise ISO TS quality culture in a hystorical moment when quality should play a guiding role, stronger than ever.

I would offer the suggestion that 'qualification' as stated in ISO/TS is a 'sub set' of competency! Although there is more written about training and qualification in ISo/TS 16949, I don't believe it changes the requirement for competent auditors first and foremost!

 

[qusys]

Agree with you, but qualification should proved with an objective evidence.
Ok, to see the effectveness of the internal audit plan, the coverage of all clauses for ISO TS an so on, but if there are some problems, then registrar auditor righlty go in depth and want to see all the record as well.
My experience , only for ISO TS , is to have all internal auditors "qualified", putting in the internal audit procedure, all the criteria for competence, trainig , skills and also foresee a recognised course ( 32/40 hrs),held by recognised body that ascertain their competence with an examination.
Besides, there is also the maintenance of the knowledge and competenc ewith refresh and do a certain numebr of internal audit vs ISO TS as well.
Hope to have found a common ground on this also reading my previous posts.

see yoou and let me known

I wasn't meaning to suggest that my qualifications are in doubt, more that it is based on my experience in the ISO certification world, common and most unnecessary to do things because auditors have a bias or incorrect understanding of so called 'requirements'! Time and time we read here about people who acquiesce to external auditors 'demands'. It is too easy for auditors to ask for 'training records'!

I once had a client written a major finding under ISO/TS 16949 - their only 1 - because they couldn't produce a record of my training as their internal audit trainer! Did the auditors think to look at the internal audit results and records and ask themselves 'Does this client have an effective audit program'? They only had a few minor NC's and they couldn't tell if the internal audits were effective! It's this kind of joke that gives CB's and certification a bad name and I'd venture to suggest that it's not a sample of 1, either!

No! All the sorry individuals could do was write an NC for a piece of meaningless paper!

 

[Isabel Arroyo]

I am a certified ISO/TS auditor by TÜV and in my opinion IS/TS specific requirements are so unique that definitely you need specific training. However, you may have formal training in ISO 9001 auditing + experience in automotive industry, in my opinion this should be enough to fulfill the competence requirement.

What do you guys think?

Isabel

 

[brahmaiah]

Hello.
Please clarify somebody. Am I qualified to audit (internal audit) with relation to ISO/TS 16949 (clause 8.2.2.5) if I have only ISO 9001 auditor certificate?

Thank you in advance

NO!
V.J.Brahmaiah