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Interesting Discussion ISO 9001 - Snake Oil? A discussion of the validity/value of ISO 9001

What Do YOU Believe About ISO 9001?

  • ASQ Member - Yes I read it.

    Votes: 8 36.4%
  • ASQ Member - Didn't read it.

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Not an ASQ Member

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Agree - It's Snake Oil, a Scam.

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • It has Become a Scam, but is Good Business Practices

    Votes: 14 63.6%
  • Disagree - Hoyer is way off base.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#21
Mike,

I forget these days what Dramm's association was, but Wes is right. It was in the context of what Dramm wrote.

Regards,

Kevin
 
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Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Staff member
Admin
#22
Customer Satisfaction vs. Profitability

Mike S. said:
Kevin -- You said, "I respectfully submit that customer satisfaction and profitability are not linked". Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Are they a perfect correlation? IMO, no. But IMO they are reasonably correlated in most cases.
Any data to back this up? I don't believe they are linked either.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#23
Re: Customer Satisfaction vs. Profitability

Marc said:
Any data to back this up? I don't believe they are linked either.
Hmmmmm.... an old thread resurrected. Data -- do I have data to back this up? Well, not right off the bat I don't. I'm sure I could dig us some references from various "experts" showing the link that I believe is there, but you could probably dig around and find some that agree with your point, too. To me it just seems like common sense that satisfied customers will help your profitability and vice-versa, thus my original statement: "Whether you make potato chips or semiconductor chips; whether you mop floors or provide corporate IT support for GM, do a bad job in some respect and tick-off your customers (make them dissatisfied) and see what happens to your profits." Being a self-employed businessman I would think you'd see a link between satisfied customers and profits, but I suppose not. I know that when I am unhappy with a product or service I usually do not spend money with the business providing it, or I spend less.

Do you have any data to support your view?

In the interim, I think this question begs one of those unscientific but nevertheless interesting Cove polls. I'll post one soon.
 
J

Joe Cruse

#24
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Is it possible that in order to make customers satifisfied (service, quality, pricing, environmental, etc), one cannot profitably make the product for them?

I'm thinking of the stories of how some businesses were "driven" out of the market by the Big 3's constant demand for price decreases, which were required by them for customer satisfaction.

Is this the line of thinking you are on, Marc and Kevin?

Joe
 
#25
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Joe Cruse said:
Is it possible that in order to make customers satifisfied (service, quality, pricing, environmental, etc), one cannot profitably make the product for them?
Absolutley. That's when we say NO. 7.2.2c is at least one clause that is not snake oil.

/Claes
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#26
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

Joe Cruse said:
Is it possible that in order to make customers satifisfied (service, quality, pricing, environmental, etc), one cannot profitably make the product for them?
Sometimes that is certainly the case, no question.
 
I

ISO 9001 Guy

#30
Re: ISO 9001 - Snake Oil?

In a recent issue of Quality Progress, R. W. Hoyer wrote an article titled Why Quality Gets An F. The current issue has several replies in its QP Mailbag.

The poll with this thread is Multiple Choice.

I'm curious... What do YOU think? Your comments are also welcome!
It's like that picture where some people see a haggard old woman and others looking at the same picture see a lovely young woman. It's the same ink on the page. Yet two people can disagree about what it represents. These exercises often serve to reflect the viewpoint of the observer.
Those who view ISO 9001 as a guide identifying which processes an organization must control to assure quality, or a framework upon which to pattern a QMS, it's like these folks view ISO 9001 as the haggard old woman. For years, many promoted this view of ISO 9001, plenty insisting there was no other way to view it.
The beauty in ISO 9001 cannot be seen from this perspective. The lovely young woman is standing right before us, yet so few see her. ISO is doing all it can to help us see the beauty in ISO 9001 by promoting the process approach, but this advice escapes those who insist upon seeing the old hag.
If an observer chooses to view ISO 9001 as the old woman, and chooses not to see the beauty in it, it sure does look like snake oil. If an observer chooses to see the beauty in it, using ISO 9001 properly as intended, it IS NOT snake oil.
What tool can one use contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations and expect good results? If a person continues to use a tool contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations, and continues to produce bad results, at some point we might hope it would occur to that person that some benefit may result from understanding the manufacturer's recommendations. Certainly a person misusing a tool and losing productivity as the result must at some point lose the right to complain about the tool.
If this person is unaware of the proper way to use the tool, yet has been (mis)using it properly from all indications, it's easy to see why this poor person might think the tool is nothing but snake oil. It's really a matter of understanding how to use the tool properly. Used properly, it's good quality management--not snake oil.
 
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