Iso 9001 vs. Ts 16949 - Small Metal Fabrication Company - Do we need TS 16949?

[sjrutland]

Hello, I have a question. We are a small ( 49 employee ) metal fabucation company that is ISO9001:2000 certified. We supply parts for all different
types of industries including the automotive industry. We have had one of
our automotive customers tell us we have to go to TS16949. With being such a small company and only 2 people in quality I do not want to take this step unless I have too. Also the other automotive companies we do business with is ok with us being ISO. Any comments on how to handle this. Do I need to go to TS?

 

[D.Scott]

There is no requirement for any supplier (other than a direct supplier to an OEM) to be TS-16949 certified. The requirement is that you be certified to ISO 9001:2000 at a minimum and working toward compliance to 16949.

That said, if your customer tells you you have to be certified to 16949 it becomes a customer requirement and your management has to decide if they will meet that requirement of doing business with them. You don't have to accept the terms. You have a choice to not supply them.

When deciding if you want 16949, you need to consider that it only covers the automotive industry. If you have other customers who require ISO 9001:2000, the 16949 will not cover those activities. You will need a seperate certification for the non-automotive part of your business.

For further clarification and documentation of this, try http://www.iaob.org/faq.html and specify FAQ #2.

I would ask your customer why they need you to be certified. You may find out it is no more than a misunderstanding of the requirement on the part of your customer.

Dave

 

[ralphsulser]

If your customer has issued written Customer Specific Requirements and is a direct tier 1 to automotive, then you must comply if you wish to continue to keep them as a customer. We are a supplier to Visteon and have received their CSR, and a deadline. Since we wish to continue doing businees with them, we must comply with their requirements. We also produce products for non automotive customers, and that business will not fall under our scope for TS 16949:2002 registration.
So, do they really want it, or would they like for you to have it, and is it contingent on future business?

 

[D.Scott]

If your customer has issued written Customer Specific Requirements and is a direct tier 1 to automotive, then you must comply if you wish to continue to keep them as a customer. We are a supplier to Visteon and have received their CSR, and a deadline. Since we wish to continue doing businees with them, we must comply with their requirements. We also produce products for non automotive customers, and that business will not fall under our scope for TS 16949:2002 registration.
So, do they really want it, or would they like for you to have it, and is it contingent on future business?

You say you must "comply" if you wish to continue with them. There is a big difference between COMPLIANCE and CERTIFIED. Did they actually say you must be certified to 16949? If so, did you tell them you would be certified to ISO 9001:200 and compliant to 16949 but not certified?

Dave

 

[db]

Another aspect

As a fabrication company, what do you fabricate? Most of the fabricators I know do not produce parts going on vehicles. They make bases, fixtures and jigs. TS would also only apply if you were making stuff that goes on the vehicles at the assembly line. I know of a company that makes parts that go into chassis that eventually become RVs. They have been told that they are not eligible for TS because the RV market is not within the scope of TS.

 

[sjrutland]

Thank you

Thank you all for your input. It has been very helpful with the way I am going
to reply to the customer. Again I always know where to come to for help and that is here in the cove. Thanks again

Stan

 

[vanputten]

Hello Post-ers:

There is some great information in this thread. I think it would be prudent for sjrutland to clarify his / her customer's request. The customer may be confused and acting on what they think is a requirement for their suppliers (sjrutland) to be TS 16949 certified. Maybe ISO 9001 is enough and maybe TS 16949 compliant is enough? This issue may come down to a cost-benefit analysis between the cost of getting TS 16949 certification as requested by the customer and the income generated by their purchase orders.

Can anyone further clarify the following statement? "TS would also only apply if you were making stuff that goes on the vehicles at the assembly line."

We are TS 16949 certified and we make semiconductors that go into electronics at the tier 1 suppliers. Our parts do not go on vehicles at the assembly line. Also, I agree that the US RV and truck industries have different schemes and requirements than the US auto industry. I am not sure about other countries.

Finally, the metal fabrication company that I used to work for in Michigan made nothing but metal parts that went directly into an automobiles.

Regards, Dirk

 

[ralphsulser]

Below is a copy of the IATF info regarding this:

IATF communicated FAQs are clarifications of existing requirements. They are not new requirements, thus the original requirements should form the basis for reporting any noncompliance and not the FAQs.




Applicability/Scope (Revised July 2003. Revisions in blue type)

Question: Which Organizations can obtain Certification/Registration to ISO/TS 16949:2002?

Answer: Any Organization in the Automotive Supply Chain meeting the criteria below can obtain Certification to ISO/TS 16949:2002


Scope 1.1 General
- This Technical Specification, in conjunction with ISO 9001:2000, defines the quality management system requirements for the design and development, production and, when relevant, installation and service of automotive-related products.
- This Technical Specification is applicable to sites of the organization where production and/or service parts specified by the customer are manufactured.
"Automotive" shall be understood as including the following:
- Cars, Trucks (Light, Medium and Heavy), Buses, Motorcycles
"Automotive" shall be understood to exclude the following:
- Industrial, Agricultural, Off-Highway (Mining, Forestry, Construction, etc.)

3.1.11 "Site"
- Location at which value added manufacturing processes occur.
“Manufacturing”
- Process of making or fabricating:
Production materials
Production or service parts
Assemblies, or
Heat treating, welding, painting, plating, or other finishing services

 

[vanputten]

I just received my copy of the Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949:2000. 2nd Edition for ISO/TS 16949:2002, May 31, 2004.

The Scope text inthe 2nd Edition Rules does not match what ralphsulser posted but I may be confused on all of this. I am not a registrar and never have been. Also, the Draft International Standard (DIS) 17021 is referred to many times. I think ISo 17021 will replace the current ISO Guide 62 or 66. Can't remember which guide ISO 17021 is slated to replace. I am not sure how a rules document can reference a draft??!?

Also, thank you to ralphsulser for clarifying which vehicle products are or are not included in the scope of TS 16949. I stand corrected and appreciate it.

I wonder how the registrars understand all of this? I wil have to read and re-read this document to begin to understand it.

I think one beneficial course of action is to have open communication with both your customers and your registrar since the rules appear to have changed.

Regards, Dirk