ISO/TS 16949:2002 Audit Confusion

T

To Create

#1
Hi Everyone,

About a year ago I changed companies within the same field. My last company was ISO 9001 and ISO 14000 Certified, and I help them get that way. Now I am going through the same thing again, except we need to be ISO/TS 16949:2002 Certified.

I do not know if it is me or just the consultant that we have hired, but I am missing something here. TS is built on top of ISO; I get that just fine. But know the manual is writen like three different processes (MOP's, COP's,and SOP's)? I do not get this and I wrote our manual like like a QMS manual to cover all of the required points. Our consultant is not happy, but is resigned to the fact that it will work. But now to the grit of my issue.

I was always taught, and never had an audit issue, to have some general question on the checklist; but then the auditor should review the process document and any and all past audits to come up with questions for the audit. Apparently, I am being told, a TS audit is much more like an ISO document review; making sure that we are complying with all of the topic shall statements.

How is this auditing our processes? To me; I am being told that each audit we are actually doing more of a document audit with some process interviewing thrown in. Is this right? Can someone clarify this for me, since our consultant doe's not seem to be able to explain it to me?

Thanks,
Stan
 
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Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
#2
Hi Everyone,

About a year ago I changed companies within the same field. My last company was ISO 9001 and ISO 14000 Certified, and I help them get that way. Now I am going through the same thing again, except we need to be ISO/TS 16949:2002 Certified.

I do not know if it is me or just the consultant that we have hired, but I am missing something here. TS is built on top of ISO; I get that just fine. But know the manual is writen like three different processes (MOP's, COP's,and SOP's)? I do not get this and I wrote our manual like like a QMS manual to cover all of the required points. Our consultant is not happy, but is resigned to the fact that it will work. But now to the grit of my issue.

I was always taught, and never had an audit issue, to have some general question on the checklist; but then the auditor should review the process document and any and all past audits to come up with questions for the audit. Apparently, I am being told, a TS audit is much more like an ISO document review; making sure that we are complying with all of the topic shall statements.

How is this auditing our processes? To me; I am being told that each audit we are actually doing more of a document audit with some process interviewing thrown in. Is this right? Can someone clarify this for me, since our consultant doe's not seem to be able to explain it to me?

Thanks,
Stan
Hello Stan! Welcome to The Cove Forums! :agree1: :agree1:

It seems to me that you and your consultant have some differences in understanding and interpretation of the (automotive) Process Approach.

Have you actually been trained in the requirements of ISO/TS 16949, the IATF Rules, and the Process Approach that you expected to utilize in the design and implementation of your QMS including audits?

I would recommend that you conduct a search on automotive topics here at The Cove Forums. There are many that will be of interest to you.

It's important that you and your consultant come to terms of what is really required. Otherwise it will be a fustrating experience for the both of you.

And by the way...ISO/TS 16949 is quite a different animal....

Please come back!

Stijloor.
 
T

To Create

#3
Thank you Stijloor, I will search those out right away. As for frustrating, I am already there and past, but your advise will probably help. Thank you.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
#4
I was always taught, and never had an audit issue, to have some general question on the checklist; but then the auditor should review the process document and any and all past audits to come up with questions for the audit. Apparently, I am being told, a TS audit is much more like an ISO document review; making sure that we are complying with all of the topic shall statements.

How is this auditing our processes? To me; I am being told that each audit we are actually doing more of a document audit with some process interviewing thrown in. Is this right? Can someone clarify this for me, since our consultant doe's not seem to be able to explain it to me?

Thanks,
Stan
Welcome to The Cove Stan! :bigwave:

It sounds like the issues you are describing are more about the consultant than TS 16949. There is no specific requirement to "cover all the shalls" although we should indeed be thorough. The standard does ask for a process audit.

I respectfully suggest that, by virtue of your having these kinds of conflicts with the consultant, your organization needs him less than it would if you were not there. That is, your own experience is contributing to your discomfort because you are not a neophyte.

I'd try to be careful about this, but I don't advocate leaning on a consultant overmuch when gearing up for registration. I would not abandon your style in favor of his, but I would try to learn something you can apply once he's gone. After all, the company is getting registered - not the consultant.
:2cents:
 
T

To Create

#5
Thank you Jennifer.

You are right, I have 6 years experience with ISO. I am trying to learn from him though I just wish that he would give me a straight answer. Sometimes I feel that I know the material better than he does, but not in the context that he is trying to teach us.

At least I am here, because my workmates are feeling the same thing and coming to me to explain everything the best that I can.

I will keep your advice in mind and we will see what happens with auditor training.

Thanks,
Stan
 
R

ralphsulser

#6
In my opinion your company is wasting money and your time on this consultant, and I think you would do better without him
You know ISO9001 so just research here for the TS16949 info as Stijoor suggests. You do not need COPS,SOPS and MOPS. You need to show how you meet the requirements and most of all how do you satisfy your customers and what documentation from them do you have. Scorecards or something similar. Yes, I think you should meet all the "shalls" too. If you have some flow charts showing your sequence and interaction processes that would help, but it is not necessary to describe them that way. I found it easier that text. Also I would recommend you get some training as a TS16949 Lead Auditor, especially if you are a Ford supplier, then it is mandatory. This is your company's QMS do it so you can live with it.
 
T

To Create

#7
Ralphsulser,

Thank you for the support! I agree with you, but the VP of Operations and I are trying to pull this company out of the 40's with their mom and pop business attitude. So they are easily impressed with the right combination of buzz words. So I do not think that I can get rid of the consultant. But after hearing from all of you today, I will go back to doing what I know and just trying to add any required additions for TS.

Thanks,
Stan
 
C

CliffK

#8
Hi Everyone,

I was always taught, and never had an audit issue, to have some general question on the checklist; but then the auditor should review the process document and any and all past audits to come up with questions for the audit. Apparently, I am being told, a TS audit is much more like an ISO document review; making sure that we are complying with all of the topic shall statements.
Stan, it seems to me like you are getting a canned approach.

Document audits have their place. You want to make sure you hit all the shalls.

But the process audits are much more valuable.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
T

To Create

#9
CliffK,

I agree! I used to do a full blown document review once a year and then plan our process audit appraoch off of that. We had made it easier by having a lot of processes with attached flow charts. After a two or three years it got down to looking for changes due to time and growth and none compliance due to manpower changes.

I want to get things that way here, but it is a long slow battle that may take me a few years to incorporate.

Thanks for the support,
Stan
 
C

CliffK

#10
Ralphsulser,

Thank you for the support! I agree with you, but the VP of Operations and I are trying to pull this company out of the 40's with their mom and pop business attitude. So they are easily impressed with the right combination of buzz words. So I do not think that I can get rid of the consultant. But after hearing from all of you today, I will go back to doing what I know and just trying to add any required additions for TS.

Thanks,
Stan
Ah, I missed this earlier.

Yeah, Mom and Pop can be a real problem.

If this is a small shop, you might try telling them that COPs, MOPs and SOPs are really part of big-company thinking. Tell 'em that they're great tools, in the same way an anvil is a great tool. Only problem is, you don't have the resources to be lugging around any anvils.

Might work.
 
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