ISO/TS 16949:2009 Internal Audit Requirements - Your Interpretation

What does TS-16949 require for internal audit frequencies and schedules:

  • All processes must be audited at least once in any 12 month period (annually)

    Votes: 19 57.6%
  • An audit schedule must be maintained & updated annually. There is not a minimum audit frequency.

    Votes: 12 36.4%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 2 6.1%

  • Total voters
    33
T

tomvehoski

#1
I'm in a debate with my registrar over the following clause of TS-16949:

8.2.2.4 Internal Audit Plans
Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.

Their view: All processes must have been audited at least once in the last 12 month period.

My view: An audit PLAN must be maintained and updated at least annually. Processes do NOT have to be audited once in any 12 month period.

I'll hold off posting my reasoning until I get some input, as to not taint the poll.

(Edit: I probably should have used Plan instead of Schedule in the poll, so consider them the same thing since I can't seem to edit that.)
 
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B

Bruser

#2
Re: TS Internal Audit Requirements - Your Interpretation

Could go either way. I see the point of only auditing the necessary processes, but if it is necessary doing an annual audit seams reasonable. The "depth" of the process audited annually may be an area of flexibility.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
I'm in a debate with my registrar over the following clause of TS-16949:

8.2.2.4 Internal Audit Plans
Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.

Their view: All processes must have been audited at least once in the last 12 month period.

My view: An audit PLAN must be maintained and updated at least annually. Processes do NOT have to be audited once in any 12 month period.

I'll hold off posting my reasoning until I get some input, as to not taint the poll.

(Edit: I probably should have used Plan instead of Schedule in the poll, so consider them the same thing since I can't seem to edit that.)
In order to make any sense out of the unnecessarily ambiguous wording of 8.2.2.4, it's helpful to go up to 8.2.2, which is duplicated from ISO 9001 and says, in part, "An audit program shall be planned, taking into consideration the status and importance of the processes and areas to be audited, as well as the results of previous audits."

Given that the "status and importance" of some processes might not merit annual audit, I think you'll find that the most widely-accepted interpretation is that it's the plan itself that must be annual and not the individual audits.

You should be able to demonstrate that the level of risk present in processes not audited at least once in a given annual cycle is such that annual auditing of them isn't practical or cost-effective.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
I'm in a debate with my registrar over the following clause of TS-16949:

8.2.2.4 Internal Audit Plans
Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.

Their view: All processes must have been audited at least once in the last 12 month period.

My view: An audit PLAN must be maintained and updated at least annually. Processes do NOT have to be audited once in any 12 month period.

I'll hold off posting my reasoning until I get some input, as to not taint the poll.

(Edit: I probably should have used Plan instead of Schedule in the poll, so consider them the same thing since I can't seem to edit that.)
Every process is perfectly designed to produce the results it's getting. So if you have processes that are effective and efficient; ease up. If you have processes with higher risks associated with them, or have issues, increase audit efforts.

But to be honest with you; when I play auditor, that's not what I see. The "one-size (audit schedule) fits all approach" is rampant. The reason is that internal audits are viewed as a pain in the ass, not necessarily as an activity that can be very meaningful and can protect us from looking bad in the eyes of the customer.

Stijloor.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#6
I'm in a debate with my registrar over the following clause of TS-16949:

8.2.2.4 Internal Audit Plans
Internal audits shall cover all quality management related processes, activities and shifts, and shall be scheduled according to an annual plan.

Their view: All processes must have been audited at least once in the last 12 month period.

My view: An audit PLAN must be maintained and updated at least annually. Processes do NOT have to be audited once in any 12 month period.

I'll hold off posting my reasoning until I get some input, as to not taint the poll.

(Edit: I probably should have used Plan instead of Schedule in the poll, so consider them the same thing since I can't seem to edit that.)
Only to say that the interpretation of you auditor was the same during a customer audit too.
In this case, if an automotive customer asks you to internally audit all your manufacturing process according a schedule ( that can be also reviewed due to management review), this will become a requirement for your organization.
Hope this helps:bigwave:
 
T

tomvehoski

#7
For clarification - is this a debate with an auditor or with the CB and its management?
Started as a debate with an auditor in our AS9100 assessment. Auditor claimed it was in our contract with the CB, but could not produce that evidence. (I love asking auditors for evidence:lol:) I argued and won at that point, since it is definately not part of AS9100. We are also TS certified, but that audit is offset by six months. It was not written as a NC.

During the audit the lead auditor e-mailed the CB "Technical Specialist" for guidance. Six days later I receved the response pointing to sentence in question, but no further intrepretation. I have not responded yet.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
Started as a debate with an auditor in our AS9100 assessment. Auditor claimed it was in our contract with the CB, but could not produce that evidence. (I love asking auditors for evidence:lol:) I argued and won at that point, since it is definately not part of AS9100. We are also TS certified, but that audit is offset by six months. It was not written as a NC.

During the audit the lead auditor e-mailed the CB "Technical Specialist" for guidance. Six days later I receved the response pointing to sentence in question, but no further intrepretation. I have not responded yet.
Irrespective of the interpretation of the clause, I think you might be on shaky ground if you contend that there are QMS processes that would not benefit from at least a single annual audit. Nonetheless, if you're confident in your position and can support it with reasonable evidence, you might want to reply to the "technical specialist" that your audits are performed in accordance with an annual schedule, putting the ball back in his court, where it belongs at this point.
 
C

ChrissieO

#9
As we have now moved to a more processed based audit schedule for all 4 standards, (9001, 16949,18001,14001) we look at the overall process of What We Do and follow that through, ensuring that all elements of the stadard are covered within these audits. We do this twice a year and from this we can identify any areas of concern or risk and plan more isolated audits of these elements or processes.

This has reduced our actual number of audits planned at the begining of the audit year from about 45 small isolated audits to about 20 (including the 2 indepth full process audits).

This can increase throughout the year as we put the onus on the management team highlight to you any areas/processes of conern and and let your audit schedule become pro-active rather than re-active.

We have had no issues from any of our external CB auditors

Chrissie
 
S

Stefanus Simbolon R

#10
Re: TS Internal Audit Requirements - Your Interpretation

8.2.2.4 Internal Audit Plans, you can debate it, but I always see that Internal audit as good media to evaluate effectiveness my system, Our Internal Audit schedule always considers problem internal or external such as claim raise, reject internal or other problem, so we usually use internal audit to investigate or follow up corrective action.
Clausal 8.2.2.4 say Internal audit is scheduled annually, can we accept that if problem always happen in our production line or our claim raise?
 
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