ISO/TS 16949 CBs & Auditors not following up on the schedules

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
They can be furious if they want, but they've been doing it wrong and overcharging customers like you for years. You have a right to be angry too. I'm glad you're on the way to getting this resolved.

VDA had replied to me today, but I was astounded by the fact that this person at the technical team had provided a false information to VDA to defend himself. He had told them that our parent company had other locations they support, so that was why he counted more than just 2 people for audit days??? This is not even an excuse!!! :mad:

First, it's beyond surprising that the CB is telling a false information when confronted by VDA, and second, their excuse is not even correct either. If in fact what he said was 100% true and if we had several manufacturing sites, the CB is supposed to split the head count of support activity by the percentage of entire sites head count, so his logic is still going to be wrong because he cannot apply 100% head count of RL to one manufacturing location if there were multiple manufacturing locations.

I don't know what made of him to lie like that, but I replied to VDA that I couldn't understand why he would provide them such false information. Our parent company does have another subsidiary in China, but it's barely manufacturing, is not even ISO 9001 or ISO/TS 16949 certified, and they don't have any relationship with our location, and I don't understand why should they be considered in the scope ever (from the very beginning, I never mentioned that they were part of the scope).

On the other notes, VDA had told me that this person from technical team would contact me to explain 2 options from 5.5 of The Rule book, but he never contacted me. The customer relations manager who has been in touch with me sent me a audit schedule confirmation stating the audit dates and audit man-days to be 1.625 (1.5 days + 1 hour documentation review), which was originally on the contract. They apparently decided to stick with the original contract, probably for the fact because there would be a breach of contract if they didn't, and for the fact that I told them that if they were doing 2.5-day audit we were not going to pay for the extra 1 day because it wasn't on the contract and they should eat the cost, and for the fact that his decision of 2.5-day audit could not be justified in any way per The Rules book and because I contacted VDA. I don't think he can explain why 2.5-day audit is necessary based on The Rules book, and because of this reason, I don't anticipate him to contact me to explain and justify his position.

I am just plain very disappointed by the way this CB is handling this matter. The more I get into this, the more I get doubtful of their capability. We must finish this audit first, but we'll be on our way to a different CB. We had enough of this.

But, I am glad that I could come here to get advice from people. If this was prior to April, 2016, I could have been stuck with loads of problems... I'm glad that this forum came back and that I found solutions...

:thanks: :thanks: :thanks:
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
The customer relations manager who has been in touch with me sent me a audit schedule confirmation stating the audit dates and audit man-days to be 1.625 (1.5 days + 1 hour documentation review), which was originally on the contract. They apparently decided to stick with the original contract, probably for the fact because there would be a breach of contract if they didn't, and for the fact that I told them that if they were doing 2.5-day audit we were not going to pay for the extra 1 day because it wasn't on the contract and they should eat the cost, and for the fact that his decision of 2.5-day audit could not be justified in any way per The Rules book and because I contacted VDA.

Sounds like you got what you need for now. Good luck on a final resolution.
 
J

JerryJ

I have found that appealing a NC or even complaining about it to the CB is more trouble than it is worth. All they do is jerk you around. You rarely get anywhere trying to dispute something.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
Why would this make a difference?

If you want the right answer, you should go to the subject matter expert. There are questions about whether the calculations were done correctly. The people in Technical should know the requirements. Someone in Sales may have an idea of the requirements, but may or may not actually know how to apply them correctly. In this case, it looks like both may be wrong... :notme:
 
J

JoShmo

If you want the right answer, you should go to the subject matter expert. There are questions about whether the calculations were done correctly. The people in Technical should know the requirements. Someone in Sales may have an idea of the requirements, but may or may not actually know how to apply them correctly. In this case, it looks like both may be wrong... :notme:

So are you saying sales people aren't subject matter experts?
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
So are you saying sales people aren't subject matter experts?
Sales people are not the expert in determining the days needed for the audit. It's the technical team that usually determines the days needed for the audit based on the scope and questionnaire answers provided by the client. Customer service (sales) may know some of the things, but they are not the ones that are ultimately determining these. They are just the customer service taking clients' words and throwing them at the technical team and technical team responds to the customer service and customer service returns to the clients. If the issue is more involved or something that cannot be resolved at this level, then the customer service usually sends the clients directly to the technical team to discuss. In our case, the technical team was unsatisfactorily responding to our questions at the second time, I had to take it to IAOB then to VDA, which at the end resolved the issue.
 
J

JoShmo

Sales people are not the expert in determining the days needed for the audit. It's the technical team that usually determines the days needed for the audit based on the scope and questionnaire answers provided by the client. Customer service (sales) may know some of the things, but they are not the ones that are ultimately determining these. They are just the customer service taking clients' words and throwing them at the technical team and technical team responds to the customer service and customer service returns to the clients. If the issue is more involved or something that cannot be resolved at this level, then the customer service usually sends the clients directly to the technical team to discuss. In our case, the technical team was unsatisfactorily responding to our questions at the second time, I had to take it to IAOB then to VDA, which at the end resolved the issue.

What kind of expert do you need to read off of a chart like MD-5 or the TS rules? Is design in or out of scope? Doesn't seem to difficult to me...
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
What kind of expert do you need to read off of a chart like MD-5 or the TS rules? Is design in or out of scope? Doesn't seem to difficult to me...

It doesn't seem difficult to me either, but apparently it was for Crimpshrine13's CB.
 
J

JoShmo

Sales people are not the expert in determining the days needed for the audit. It's the technical team that usually determines the days needed for the audit based on the scope and questionnaire answers provided by the client. Customer service (sales) may know some of the things, but they are not the ones that are ultimately determining these.

In fact, some registers the sales people ARE auditors (take a look at some of the smaller registers in the uSA for a start) Turns out the ones I've seen the boss is often an auditor AND does quotes etc. No "sales" people, as such, I guess. Weird...
 
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