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ISO/TS 16949 certification questions

Peters

Quite Involved in Discussions
#1
I have some questions. Maybe somebody can answer.
We analyse firm XYZ during the ISO/TS 16949 certification audit.

1.XYZ customer is trading/commercial firm. This customer doesn’t transform products. He ships them to the (for example) Volkswagen. This customer didn’t noticed that XYZ shall conform to VW requirements. Does XYZ should conform to VW CSR? Is this customer real TS customer?

2.XYZ produces products for automotive industry and other industries (for example electronic or mechanical industry). Does FMEA, CP, FC, LO requirements refer only to the automotive products and automotive implementations?

3.XYZ supplier is trading/commercial firm (and it doesn't produce materials). Does "quality system development” requirement refer to this supplier? Does “ISO 9001 certification” refer to this supplier? Or maybe such requirements refer rather to manufacturing sub-supplier? In such case XYZ should be focused on supplier or sub-supplier?

4.Material supplier for XYZ is a „sister” company from the same holding company. Is it really supplier or remote location? Does this “sister” company should be included in certification audit?

5.Tooling and maintenance for XYZ is
A)In dependent company ABC (in the same location).
B)In dependent company ABC (in remote location).
C)In company ABC, and ABC owner is XYZ and DDD (other independent company)
Does ABC should be included in certification audit?

PS. I know, my english is... :eek:
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

1) If VW requires them to, then XYZ's customer should flow the VW requirements down to XYZ. I haven't worked directly with VW or its suppliers so I can't give you a better answer than that.

There is a document dated September 1998 called something like "Quality Management Agreement between the Volkswagen Group and its Suppliers." This should be reviewed for more information.

2) TS 16949 certification audits only look at automotive processes and products. FMEA, control plan, etc. don't need to be applied to products or processes for other industries.

3) I believe ISO 9001 certification applies to the manufacturing sites, not distributors (see below).

4) If the material supplier is at the same physical location, it should be included as part of the site. If at a different physical location it can be treated as a supplier. See information from the FAQs below:
Where the supplier is at the same physical location as the organization, the supplier shall be audited as part of the organization see Rules 1.7.

Where the supplier is at a different physical location to the organization, the supplier shall be addressed within the organization’s QMS as a supplier (re ISO/TS 16949:2002 – 7.4).

“Supplier” in this clause (7.4.1.2) refers to sites where production and/or service parts specified by the customer are manufactured. See also the definition of “manufacturing”, 3.1.6.
5) More clarification from the FAQs:
Remote supporting functions shall be considered as part of the site audit, not as a subcontracted function (see Rules 2.3). Remote supporting functions shall be assessed to meet the Annex 1 requirement that “Within the process audit all ISO/TS 16949:2002 clauses shall be covered.”

A test related to ‘same company/corporation remote supporting function’ could be that the service provided is only for the one company/corporation versus an independent company that would offer such a service to a number of different customers.
I hope this helps...
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#3
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

1) ...

3) I believe ISO 9001 certification applies to the manufacturing sites, not distributors (see below).

...

Any kind of organization can be certified to ISO 9001. The restriction you cite applies to TS-16949, where distributors cannot be certified to TS.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#4
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

Here's what I meant (from the FAQ):
“Supplier” in this clause (7.4.1.2) refers to sites where production and/or service parts specified by the customer are manufactured.
I realize that the distributor can be certified to ISO 9001, I just don't believe they are required to be.
 

Peters

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

howste
Some comments to your opinion:

1.Two situations are possible - XYZ know that VW is next customer and XYZ doesn't know that VW is next customer. In the second situation there is no proof that XYZ is automotive supplier (OEM or TierI supplier).
1.Next two situations are possible - Customer requires XYZ to implement VW CSR, and customer doesn't require XYZ to implement VW CSR. In the second situation I think VW CSR isn't requirement for XYZ.

2.I agree with you, but I know CB auditors who say "When XYZ has automotive and nonautomotive products in one business and this business is ISO/TS 16949 certified - all TS requirements refer to all products".
2.I have better problem. XYZ has automotive-OEM-products and aftermarket products (for auto-shops). Does TS requirements refer only to automotive-OEM-products? I think aftemarket products haven't IATF customer and aftermarket products don't fulfill OEM/TierI needs. So aftemarket product are only ISO9001-level products. Am I right or wrong?

4.For me the problem is - is this firm - supplier or part of business (remote location)? I don't know how to interprete it...
 
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howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

1.Two situations are possible - XYZ know that VW is next customer and XYZ doesn't know that VW is next customer. In the second situation there is no proof that XYZ is automotive supplier (OEM or TierI supplier).
1.Next two situations are possible - Customer requires XYZ to implement VW CSR, and customer doesn't require XYZ to implement VW CSR. In the second situation I think VW CSR isn't requirement for XYZ.
Your contract is between you and your customer. If your customer pushes the requirements down to you, then you must comply. If not, you don't have to comply.

2.I agree with you, but I know CB auditors who say "When XYZ has automotive and nonautomotive products in one business and this business is ISO/TS 16949 certified - all TS requirements refer to all products".
2.I have better problem. XYZ has automotive-OEM-products and aftermarket products (for auto-shops). Does TS requirements refer only to automotive-OEM-products? I think aftemarket products haven't IATF customer and aftermarket products don't fulfill OEM/TierI needs. So aftemarket product are only ISO9001-level products. Am I right or wrong?
I'm a TS 16949 CB auditor. I've been told/trained very specifically to not audit processes and products that are not automotive OEM. For the clients that I audit I don't look at aftermarket products. I do look at service parts for OEM though.

4.For me the problem is - is this firm - supplier or part of business (remote location)? I don't know how to interprete it...
If they are at the same physical location (in the same building), they are considered part of the site and must be audited as part of your company. If they are at a different physical location (different building or city) they must be treated as a supplier instead.

I hope this clears things up for you.
 
R

ralphsulser

#7
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

Look at TS16949 section 1.1 bottom on page 1 of TS16949:2002.
Here is basically what is stated:
Supporting functions, whether on-site or remote locations, such as sales or engineering need to be audited as "Remote sites" form part of the site audit(our plant) as they support the site.
We have a sales office in Detroit that work with our customers for requests for quotes, customer contract reviews, costs and timing. They were required to be audited for our operation for their functions as a supporting process.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Some questions concerning ISO/TS 16949 certification

The key here is that Peters' supporting function is being done by a different company, but with common ownership...
 

Peters

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
The question is - What is the definition of "remote location"?
For example:
XYZ (production) is in Hanover and ABC (sales) is in Barcelona (and ABC sells XYZ products)
Four possibilities:
1.XYZ is owner of ABC.
Is ABC remote location? The answer is (I think) YES
2.XYZ and ABC have common owner (OWNER Ltd from London).
Is ABC remote location? The answer is ... well ... I'm not sure :cool:
3.XYZ is co-owner of ABC. Second owner is JKL (no relationship between XYZ and JKL)
Is ABC remote location? The answer is ... well ... well ... :tg:
4.XYZ has no relationship with ABC (only contact: supplier-customer).
Is ABC remote location? The answer is (I think) NO
 
R

ralphsulser

#10
Contact your CB for clarification how they will audit the remote related functions. I talked to mine about 3 times to make sure we had to spend extra money for travel, meals, day rate etc. I tried the "supplier" suggestion, but it was not acceptable to the CB based on the statement in TS16949:2002. We did not have to have our corporate headquartes in Japan audited for their inputs to out operations because their quality system at 4 facilties there were certified by a recognized CB. I had to have a copy of their CB audit report, and the closure of any nonconformances as evidence. It was 82 pages due to the translations.
 
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