ISO/TS 16949 - Definition Clause, sub clause, section, element

F

Filip M.

#1
Hi,

sometimes people are speaking about clause 4 "Quality management system", sub clause 4.2 section 4.2.3 and element 4.2.3.1. Other people use chapter 4, section 4.2, clause 4.2.3 and element 4.2.3.1

Can someone give me the correct definition of this different levels, ...or a reference (standard, guideline) where to find.

Thanks in advance for a reaction.

Filip
 
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Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#2
Hi,

sometimes people are speaking about clause 4 "Quality management system", sub clause 4.2 section 4.2.3 and element 4.2.3.1. Other people use chapter 4, section 4.2, clause 4.2.3 and element 4.2.3.1

Can someone give me the correct definition of this different levels, ...or a reference (standard, guideline) where to find.

Thanks in advance for a reaction.

Filip
The word element in TS is only used in the Control Plan Annex A.

0.2 mentions clause and 7.5.1.7 mentions subclause in the note.

So, there are only clauses and subclauses.
 
F

Filip M.

#3
Hi Kales, if I understood well. They are speaking about clauses (1, 2, 3, ...8) and subclauses. Subclause can be 7.5 or 7.5.1 or even a 7.5.1.7. No distinction between a 7.5 and 7.5.1 or even a 7.5.1.7 ? I find this strange. Perhaps there is a reasonfor. If you know them, I'm glad to hear it.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Hi Kales, if I understood well. They are speaking about clauses (1, 2, 3, ...8) and subclauses. Subclause can be 7.5 or 7.5.1 or even a 7.5.1.7. No distinction between a 7.5 and 7.5.1 or even a 7.5.1.7 ? I find this strange. Perhaps there is a reasonfor. If you know them, I'm glad to hear it.
4,5, 6 etc..etc.. are chapters.
4.1, 4.2 , 5.1, 7.5 etc.etc are clauses.

7.5.1 is a subclause

From general standpoint Chapter has one number, clause two numbers, subclause three numbers.
 

harry

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Check: Wikipedia reference-linkISO 2145 (Documentation -- Numbering of divisions and subdivisions in written documents)


Abstract

Applies to all kinds of written documents, for example manuscripts, printed works, books, journal articles, directions for use and standards. Numbering of divisions and subdivisions is advocated if this - clarifies the sequence, importance and interrelation of individual divisions and subdivisions; - simplifies search and retrieval of certain passages in the text; - makes possible the citation of single parts of the text; - facilitates references within a written work.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#6
4,5, 6 etc..etc.. are chapters.
4.1, 4.2 , 5.1, 7.5 etc.etc are clauses.

7.5.1 is a subclause

From general standpoint Chapter has one number, clause two numbers, subclause three numbers.
Where did you find this information? The word chapter is not used in the standard.

Please supply a valid source for your opinion.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#7
Hi Kales, if I understood well. They are speaking about clauses (1, 2, 3, ...8) and subclauses. Subclause can be 7.5 or 7.5.1 or even a 7.5.1.7. No distinction between a 7.5 and 7.5.1 or even a 7.5.1.7 ? I find this strange. Perhaps there is a reasonfor. If you know them, I'm glad to hear it.
I quoted from the TS standard. That is the verbiage that I use and have used for many years.

You can also look at ISO 9000:2005 and review the use of the word "clause".
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Where did you find this information? The word chapter is not used in the standard.

Please supply a valid source for your opinion.
Yes , you are right.
it is an usage for convenience to use the term "chapter" insteas of "clause" that is the right one.
This can happen during training etc..
In reality 7.0, 5.0 , 4.0 etc are clause...
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#9
Yes , you are right.
it is an usage for convenience to use the term "chapter" insteas of "clause" that is the right one.
This can happen during training etc..
In reality 7.0, 5.0 , 4.0 etc are clause...
Thank you.

My two cents: We have to be very careful with using words for convenience with dealing with standards.

(I recall discussions about what SC means. TS does not use the abbreviation and speaks about special characteristics. Several OEMs use SC to mean significant characteristic meeting certain S, O and D conditions).
 
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