ISO/TS 16949 Pre-Audit Requirement

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#1
At recent 3rd-party audit, an auditor said that we had to have Annex 1.1 matrix form (page 55 of Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949, Rules for Achieving and Maintaining IATF Recognition, Fourth Edition) turned in prior to the audit. It wasn't there, but we had our processes laid out on our flow chart showing each processes interacting with other processes, so it was not that we did not identify our processes, but the auditor said that because Annex 1.1 form was missing, the audit could not be continued, and wrote up a major NC.

Nowhere on Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949, Rules for Achieving and Maintaining IATF Recognition, Fourth Edition mandates this Annex 1.1 filled out by client, but it only says that the auditor must make sure that all processes must be audited and reported per Annex 1.1 form.

While I accept the fact that I did not turn in the form prior to the audit, I do not understand why this could have been a major NC, since we have identified our processes (not on the matrix sheet, but in a different format), and that it was not a total absence from our quality system. Because all the processes have been identified, I do not believe this is a complete system failure and why this can be a major NC?

Does anyone have any idea?
 
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R

Reg Morrison

#2
I am not fully versed in the IATF automotive rules, but, it seems to me that the auditor is over reaching here. Like you said, the instructions is for him and the registrar.

Have you appealed of the nonconformity to the registrar yet? It seems that with a major NC mandatorily having to be followed up with an on-site visit, TS registrars are artificially reporting more major NC's so they generate more revenue from each certified client.

Stick to your guns.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
At recent 3rd-party audit, an auditor said that we had to have Annex 1.1 matrix form (page 55 of Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949, Rules for Achieving and Maintaining IATF Recognition, Fourth Edition) turned in prior to the audit. It wasn't there, but we had our processes laid out on our flow chart showing each processes interacting with other processes, so it was not that we did not identify our processes, but the auditor said that because Annex 1.1 form was missing, the audit could not be continued, and wrote up a major NC <snip>
Was there a closing meeting of some kind?

Have you challenged the Auditor?
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#4
I am not fully versed in the IATF automotive rules, but, it seems to me that the auditor is over reaching here. Like you said, the instructions is for him and the registrar.

Have you appealed of the nonconformity to the registrar yet? It seems that with a major NC mandatorily having to be followed up with an on-site visit, TS registrars are artificially reporting more major NC's so they generate more revenue from each certified client.

Stick to your guns.

Thank you for your reply.

The audit abruptly ended in two hours before the opening meeting even started (because this occurred during the initial 1 hour IATF mandated pre-audit review) despite the registrar office insisted to continue on with the audit because the auditor was unwilling to keep going with the audit. He reported to the registrar that "we" the clients called off the audit, and the office is now telling us that we're responsible to pay for the audit AND the cancellation fee. We immediately complained and the next day we were on the conference call with the auditor and his boss, but the auditor kept lying about what he said at our facility, probably because he was in front of his boss.

We were thinking to appeal the NCs (he made 2 major NCs, one is this one and the other is us not providing pre-audit material, which is untrue - he did not even look at anything that were presented in front of him on that day), but I am not sure how the registrar will go about it. I have already spoke with the client services rep and discussed what happened and no one was listening to us during the conference call, but she was going to be investigating, collecting information from both parties.

I am also talking with a few other people outside of our company to look into what other options may be suitable with our current situation because current certificate will expire in two months.

Like you said, we were also discussing about the money issue as well. After all, it's all about money. By making it look like we called off the audit, they think they can charge us double for this one, and another on-site visits, plus the cancellation fee of initial one. I don't know how much we can go about this, but I will sure get this $$$ issue straightened out once our certificate situation is covered.
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#5
Was there a closing meeting of some kind?

Have you challenged the Auditor?

Thank you for your reply.

As I had mentioned this in the other reply to Reg Morrison, there was no closing meeting, not even the opening meeting because this occurred during the first 1 hour of pre-audit review (new IATF rule effective April 1, 2014). He insisted that he "had to have" the Annex 1.1 matrix sheet in order to audit, and we did not have it before audit, hence audit cannot continue. We had a conference call the next day with the auditor and his boss, but the auditor kept lying about what he said here and changing his stories every minute and the discussion was not going anywhere. His boss did not sound like he was listening to us and pretty much backing up the auditor. We only have 15 days to reply on this because the report is citing for 2 major NCs (listed on the reply above), and we do not have much options right now and I am getting in touch with a few other people outside of the company to work something out for our certification status.

Even if we challenge the auditor, I am not sure what kind of response we will be getting since he is keep changing his stories. When he was here, he said he had to have the Annex 1.1 matrix sheet in order to continue with the audit, but on the conference call, he said he was flexible that it did not have to be the Annex 1.1 matrix sheet, so we cannot even discuss with this auditor. I do believe that it did not have to be Annex 1.1, but to cover his position, he probably lied about it and said that he was flexible and tried to make it look like we called off the audit instead of him suggesting to call it off.

We've been certified to TS since 2005 and this was the most disturbing experience we had. If we did not identify the processes completely in the first place, how could we have maintained our certification status in the past 9 years? It was almost that the auditor decided that we're not ready for the audit at all and thus is not worth auditing anyway...and they are still trying to charge for the audit and the cancellation fee, AND the follow-up on-site audit.
 
R

Reg Morrison

#6
Two things that tend to work miracles with registrars:
A threat to transfer the certification and,
A threat of a lawsuit.

Even though it might cost you more money to transfer your TS certificate since you would have to start from scratch, you can not maintain a business relationship with a service supplier you don't trust anymore. I would bet some money that, if you explain to your automotive customers why you let your TS certificate lapse and you are in the process of contracting another registrar, they will understand the situation.

Also, you can tell the registrar that you are working with, currently, that you will report the situation in social media (here) naming names. After fainting and hyperventilating for a couple of hours, the registrar boss will find a miraculous solution for your case.
 
B

Bjourne

#7
I sympathize with you on your plight...

They have clearly stepped out of bounds on this as the requirements are there and the auditor should have considered it since "it's there in the flow chart" and present in the process. They should have continued the audit and gave you the chance to show "just cause" for it. If they are not satisfied with your "just cause" it should not have been a major NC at all. The advice of Reg I agree. How can you work with someone that you now do not trust...I understand that it is time consuming and economically unwise because of the money involved but transferring your TS certificate will go a long way towards the future. Go hit em at Facebook!
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#8
At recent 3rd-party audit, an auditor said that we had to have Annex 1.1 matrix form (page 55 of Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949, Rules for Achieving and Maintaining IATF Recognition, Fourth Edition) turned in prior to the audit. It wasn't there, but we had our processes laid out on our flow chart showing each processes interacting with other processes, so it was not that we did not identify our processes, but the auditor said that because Annex 1.1 form was missing, the audit could not be continued, and wrote up a major NC.

Nowhere on Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949, Rules for Achieving and Maintaining IATF Recognition, Fourth Edition mandates this Annex 1.1 filled out by client, but it only says that the auditor must make sure that all processes must be audited and reported per Annex 1.1 form.

While I accept the fact that I did not turn in the form prior to the audit, I do not understand why this could have been a major NC, since we have identified our processes (not on the matrix sheet, but in a different format), and that it was not a total absence from our quality system. Because all the processes have been identified, I do not believe this is a complete system failure and why this can be a major NC?

Does anyone have any idea?
Did the CB send you in advance this form? It is a common practice they accomplish to together with indication of indices, trend of RMAs, list of automitive customers etc. etc. as usual.
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#9
Two things that tend to work miracles with registrars:
A threat to transfer the certification and,
A threat of a lawsuit.

Even though it might cost you more money to transfer your TS certificate since you would have to start from scratch, you can not maintain a business relationship with a service supplier you don't trust anymore. I would bet some money that, if you explain to your automotive customers why you let your TS certificate lapse and you are in the process of contracting another registrar, they will understand the situation.

Also, you can tell the registrar that you are working with, currently, that you will report the situation in social media (here) naming names. After fainting and hyperventilating for a couple of hours, the registrar boss will find a miraculous solution for your case.

Thank you for your insight. It's funny because I was also talking to another registrar yesterday for a possibility of transferring. It assures me that someone else is suggesting the same thing. I totally agree with your comment on explaining to our customers. While they want to see certification, if we give the explanation about the current status, I believe they would understand it that it wouldn't be the end of the world. At this point, we don't have much options, and I feel that transferring would be the better option for us instead of keep fighting with the current registrar because they did say that we need to setup another date with this auditor for a follow-up audit, and we don't want to see this auditor anymore.
 

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#10
I sympathize with you on your plight...

They have clearly stepped out of bounds on this as the requirements are there and the auditor should have considered it since "it's there in the flow chart" and present in the process. They should have continued the audit and gave you the chance to show "just cause" for it. If they are not satisfied with your "just cause" it should not have been a major NC at all. The advice of Reg I agree. How can you work with someone that you now do not trust...I understand that it is time consuming and economically unwise because of the money involved but transferring your TS certificate will go a long way towards the future. Go hit em at Facebook!
Thank you for your reply.

We think, too, that even if Annex 1.1 was not filled out, the auditor shouldn't write 2 major NCs I mentioned here, probably 1 minor NC at the most was what we were thinking.

I agree that it is no longer workable when you cannot trust the auditor and the registrar. We feel that the transferring the registration is probably the best way to go. We may not get the audit scheduled with the other registrar by the time current certificate expired, but it would be the same thing anyway with current registrar, and I don't feel fighting with them if they don't provide fair problem solving procedure between the auditors and clients.
 
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