ISO/TS16949 Requirements for Internal Audit Trainer

[catnikqc]

I would like to know if there are any interpretations regarding who is qualifiedto train internal auditors. I cannot find anything in the standard regarding the method of qualification for the trainer of internal auditors.

I work for an organization with 5 separate locations. I am one of two externally trained Lead Internal Auditors. Both of us attended 5 day training courses divided between review of the standard and review of auditing techniques. Our company policy is defined as Lead Auditors train internal auditors. The 5 day course was conducted by an RABQSA certified auditor.

We have had two different registrar's both of which have asked me if my training was the 5 day course. Is this the auditor's opinion of the competency requirement or is there a requirement here I'm overlooking?

Based upon the physical separation of our facilities (4 different states) its becoming difficult to get the necessary training of new internal auditors conducted. I think we would like to have a lead auditor at each of our locations and I'm trying to determine whether or not the 5-day course is required for the Lead Auditor. One of our location's quality managers has found an online internal auditor course for TS and a lead auditor course for ISO14001.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Stijloor]

Re: ISO/TS16949 Lead Auditor Requirements

I would like to know if there are any interpretations regarding who is qualifiedto train internal auditors. I cannot find anything in the standard regarding the method of qualification for the trainer of internal auditors.

I work for an organization with 5 separate locations. I am one of two externally trained Lead Internal Auditors. Both of us attended 5 day training courses divided between review of the standard and review of auditing techniques. Our company policy is defined as Lead Auditors train internal auditors. The 5 day course was conducted by an RABQSA certified auditor.

We have had two different registrar's both of which have asked me if my training was the 5 day course. Is this the auditor's opinion of the competency requirement or is there a requirement here I'm overlooking?

Based upon the physical separation of our facilities (4 different states) its becoming difficult to get the necessary training of new internal auditors conducted. I think we would like to have a lead auditor at each of our locations and I'm trying to determine whether or not the 5-day course is required for the Lead Auditor. One of our location's quality managers has found an online internal auditor course for TS and a lead auditor course for ISO14001.

Thanks for your help!

The only requirement in ISO/TS 16949:2009 deals with competence. Trainers that train internal auditors must be competent! That's it. Competency is determined by the organization.

Now, where some external (3rd) party auditors are confused is related to Customer Specific Requirements (CSR's). For example, if you are a supplier to Ford Motor Company, then you need to be aware of Ford-specific training requirements for internal auditors. Look at Par 4.39 in this document.

So, if there are NO customer-specific auditor training and trainer requirements, then your company decides in what manner the auditors are trained. So any references/suggestions from external auditors to 5-day or 3-day courses do not apply.

Hope this helps.

 

[Randy Lefferts]

In addition to what Stiljoor has stated, you may find this useful.

 

[qusys]

I would like to know if there are any interpretations regarding who is qualifiedto train internal auditors. I cannot find anything in the standard regarding the method of qualification for the trainer of internal auditors.

I work for an organization with 5 separate locations. I am one of two externally trained Lead Internal Auditors. Both of us attended 5 day training courses divided between review of the standard and review of auditing techniques. Our company policy is defined as Lead Auditors train internal auditors. The 5 day course was conducted by an RABQSA certified auditor.

We have had two different registrar's both of which have asked me if my training was the 5 day course. Is this the auditor's opinion of the competency requirement or is there a requirement here I'm overlooking?

Based upon the physical separation of our facilities (4 different states) its becoming difficult to get the necessary training of new internal auditors conducted. I think we would like to have a lead auditor at each of our locations and I'm trying to determine whether or not the 5-day course is required for the Lead Auditor. One of our location's quality managers has found an online internal auditor course for TS and a lead auditor course for ISO14001.

Thanks for your help!

Agree with Stijloor.
What did you establish in your mandatory documented procedures of Internal audit or Competence and training?

 

[AndyN]

Training courses don't make an auditor "competent". Define what you want to see from a competent person as an auditor and then decide what actions are necessary to bring them up to that level. For example someone who can't spell or use correct grammar or is biased about what the Purchasing people do with suppliers can't become a good auditor! from attending a 3 day or 5 day course!

You might find it more effective to coach someone who has the correct "smarts" to be an auditor. You might also wish to remove the "lead auditor reference" in your procedure. That's half the problem with attracting the comments. Someone might have a "team Leader" responsibility, but quite frankly calling someone a "Lead Auditor" when they don't have full RABQSA or IRCA qualifications is a little misleading! IMHO...

Oh, and if you have another CB ask those questions, as them how they demonstrate competency!

 

[catnikqc]

Thanks to everyone for your comments. Sometimes I believe we are our own worst enemy. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't overlooked something somewhere for a specification. Our current procedure states the "trainer" of internal auditors must have completed a "third-party two-day quality auditor course". So as long as we are meeting our own requirement and the competency requirement we should be ok.

Thanks again!

 

[isoalchemist]

Great advice from all. I would consider adding a path from Auditor to Lead Auditor internally, i.e. x audits under supervision of a Lead. It sets a requirement for a Lead without the 5-day training that from a strictly internal perspective is a waste of money.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Great advice from all. I would consider adding a path from Auditor to Lead Auditor internally, i.e. x audits under supervision of a Lead. It sets a requirement for a Lead without the 5-day training that from a strictly internal perspective is a waste of money.

It's a matter of training and competence, and the confusion over the "Lead" title should be avoided completely, imo. It's just as easy to say "x audits under supervision" before a person is allowed to conduct an audit without supervision.

 

[Jen Kirley]

There are two components to the competency of internal audit trainer. First is, of course competence in auditing but the second is in training.

Do you have materials - what will your lesson plan be? Here, I have found a Trainers Guide excerpt, posted online as an advertisement for their train-the-trainer course. A provider called Realisation also offers training materials. I am not affiliated with either organization and I haven't seen the complete materials so I can't vouch for them specifically. There may be one or more attachments available in the Post Attachments List - see the green button in the header of this page.

 

[AndyN]

Interesting concept! That one could be an effective trainer if given materials and a "lesson plan"...but nothing else!