ISO14001 and TS16949 "Compatibility" vs. Audit Day Requirements

[SteelWoman]

We're having an on-going discussion about "integrating" ISO14 into TS16949. Some folks here are under the impression that if we integrate 14 in with 16949 and get audited to 16949 we will either A) not have to maintain our ISO14 "certification" because we have integrated the systems or B) we will be able to maintain our certification without having to go through SEPERATE audit days for ISO14 because we "integrated."

Unless I'm just crazy (a point we can debate later) audit day requirements are audit day requirements. If TS requires X # of audit days and ISO14 requires X # of audit days, you still have to meet those requirements for each. I'm not aware of a registrar attempting to audit an "integrated" system using just the audit day requirements of ONE system and then registering the client to both?

Am I way off base here ? It's possible I missed some "new development," but I can't see the powers that be allowing such a "dual" audit if for no other reason than the loss of $$ in audit days that would represent.

 

[Sam]

We're having an on-going discussion about "integrating" ISO14 into TS16949. Some folks here are under the impression that if we integrate 14 in with 16949 and get audited to 16949 we will either A) not have to maintain our ISO14 "certification" because we have integrated the systems or B) we will be able to maintain our certification without having to go through SEPERATE audit days for ISO14 because we "integrated."

Unless I'm just crazy (a point we can debate later) audit day requirements are audit day requirements. If TS requires X # of audit days and ISO14 requires X # of audit days, you still have to meet those requirements for each. I'm not aware of a registrar attempting to audit an "integrated" system using just the audit day requirements of ONE system and then registering the client to both?

Am I way off base here ? It's possible I missed some "new development," but I can't see the powers that be allowing such a "dual" audit if for no other reason than the loss of $$ in audit days that would represent.

I asked the same question of 5 registrars and received the same answer; you must meet the required audit days for each cert or surveillance.

 

[SteelWoman]

At the same time I posted my original question I sent the same question to our registrar - I was correct, different audit day requirements stand.

 

[tomvehoski]

I have combined 14001 and 9000 audits in the past and received a "discount" in the number of audit days. I am not sure of the official policy on 16949 - they seem VERY strict in audit day requirements. On the other hand, registrars have a great deal of leeway on 14001 - aspects and impacts may have more to do with audit day requirements than number of employees.

I've got one client now that is QS/TE and 14001. We had two audits in the beginning but now the same auditor does both surveilance audits at the same time. It was crazy to have him audit document control for QS/TE, then come back a month later to do it for 14001.

You will still have to maintain both certificates, but I would ask for a reduction on the desk audit (if applicable) and perhaps 1-2 days on-site for the 14001/16949 common elements. Ask a few registrars for quotes and see what they will do.

 

[howste]

Did they actually research this, or did they just give an answer off the top of their head? Here's what I read in the guidance to ISO Guide 62:

The Guidance in this annex does not stipulate minimum / maximum times but provides a framework to be used by certification/registration bodies to determine appropriate auditor time, taking into account the specifics of the organization to be audited…

Once the general starting point for determining the required Auditor Time has been made for the typical organization with the number of employees indicated, some adjustments need to be considered to account for the differences that could affect the actual Auditor Time required to perform an effective audit for the specific organization to be audited...

Some factors permitting less auditor time could be, as examples:
• Organization is not “Design Responsible” and/or other Standard elements not covered in scope
• No/low risk product/processes
• Prior knowledge of organization system (e.g., already registered to another Standard by the same Registrar)
• Very small site for number of employees (e.g., Office complex only)
• Client preparedness for registration (e.g., already registered or recognized by another 3rd party scheme)

The registrar determines the number of auditor days based on guidance from Guide 62 (and its guidance document ). I'm sure they would love to bill you for the combined total of days for both standards, but the way I see it, they aren't required to.

 

[howste]

Doh! After posting, I realized you said TS 16949, not ISO 9001. TS only allows deviations from their audit day requirements for corporate registration schemes. I don't have a copy of Guide 66 for 14001, but it's probably similar to what I posted above for 9001. You can probably still get some leeway on the 14001 auditor days...

 

[SteelWoman]

I don't know how well it was researched or not. I'm guessing not. I think it was done by committee and we all KNOW what happens then! LOL!

 

[deepak69748]

Re: ISO14001 and TS16949 "compatibility" versus audit day requirements

I agree with Mr Howste

combining the requirements will not less man days , this is possible as per

Some factors permitting less auditor time could be, as examples:
• Organization is not “Design Responsible” and/or other Standard elements not covered in scope
• No/low risk product/processes
• Prior knowledge of organization system (e.g., already registered to another Standard by the same Registrar)
• Very small site for number of employees (e.g., Office complex only)
• Client preparedness for registration (e.g., already registered or recognized by another 3rd party scheme)