ISO14001 and TS16949 "Compatibility" vs. Audit Day Requirements

S

SteelWoman

#1
We're having an on-going discussion about "integrating" ISO14 into TS16949. Some folks here are under the impression that if we integrate 14 in with 16949 and get audited to 16949 we will either A) not have to maintain our ISO14 "certification" because we have integrated the systems or B) we will be able to maintain our certification without having to go through SEPERATE audit days for ISO14 because we "integrated."

Unless I'm just crazy (a point we can debate later) audit day requirements are audit day requirements. If TS requires X # of audit days and ISO14 requires X # of audit days, you still have to meet those requirements for each. I'm not aware of a registrar attempting to audit an "integrated" system using just the audit day requirements of ONE system and then registering the client to both?

Am I way off base here ? It's possible I missed some "new development," but I can't see the powers that be allowing such a "dual" audit if for no other reason than the loss of $$ in audit days that would represent.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
S
#2
SteelWoman said:
We're having an on-going discussion about "integrating" ISO14 into TS16949. Some folks here are under the impression that if we integrate 14 in with 16949 and get audited to 16949 we will either A) not have to maintain our ISO14 "certification" because we have integrated the systems or B) we will be able to maintain our certification without having to go through SEPERATE audit days for ISO14 because we "integrated."

Unless I'm just crazy (a point we can debate later) audit day requirements are audit day requirements. If TS requires X # of audit days and ISO14 requires X # of audit days, you still have to meet those requirements for each. I'm not aware of a registrar attempting to audit an "integrated" system using just the audit day requirements of ONE system and then registering the client to both?

Am I way off base here ? It's possible I missed some "new development," but I can't see the powers that be allowing such a "dual" audit if for no other reason than the loss of $$ in audit days that would represent.
I asked the same question of 5 registrars and received the same answer; you must meet the required audit days for each cert or surveillance.
 
S

SteelWoman

#3
At the same time I posted my original question I sent the same question to our registrar - I was correct, different audit day requirements stand.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
T

tomvehoski

#4
I have combined 14001 and 9000 audits in the past and received a "discount" in the number of audit days. I am not sure of the official policy on 16949 - they seem VERY strict in audit day requirements. On the other hand, registrars have a great deal of leeway on 14001 - aspects and impacts may have more to do with audit day requirements than number of employees.

I've got one client now that is QS/TE and 14001. We had two audits in the beginning but now the same auditor does both surveilance audits at the same time. It was crazy to have him audit document control for QS/TE, then come back a month later to do it for 14001.

You will still have to maintain both certificates, but I would ask for a reduction on the desk audit (if applicable) and perhaps 1-2 days on-site for the 14001/16949 common elements. Ask a few registrars for quotes and see what they will do.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#5
Did they actually research this, or did they just give an answer off the top of their head? Here's what I read in the guidance to ISO Guide 62:
The Guidance in this annex does not stipulate minimum / maximum times but provides a framework to be used by certification/registration bodies to determine appropriate auditor time, taking into account the specifics of the organization to be audited…

Once the general starting point for determining the required Auditor Time has been made for the typical organization with the number of employees indicated, some adjustments need to be considered to account for the differences that could affect the actual Auditor Time required to perform an effective audit for the specific organization to be audited...

Some factors permitting less auditor time could be, as examples:
• Organization is not “Design Responsible” and/or other Standard elements not covered in scope
• No/low risk product/processes
• Prior knowledge of organization system (e.g., already registered to another Standard by the same Registrar)
• Very small site for number of employees (e.g., Office complex only)
• Client preparedness for registration (e.g., already registered or recognized by another 3rd party scheme)
The registrar determines the number of auditor days based on guidance from Guide 62 (and its guidance document :rolleyes: ). I'm sure they would love to bill you for the combined total of days for both standards, but the way I see it, they aren't required to.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#6
Doh! After posting, I realized you said TS 16949, not ISO 9001. :bonk: TS only allows deviations from their audit day requirements for corporate registration schemes. I don't have a copy of Guide 66 for 14001, but it's probably similar to what I posted above for 9001. You can probably still get some leeway on the 14001 auditor days...
 
S

SteelWoman

#7
I don't know how well it was researched or not. I'm guessing not. I think it was done by committee and we all KNOW what happens then! LOL!
 

deepak69748

Starting to get Involved
#8
Re: ISO14001 and TS16949 "compatibility" versus audit day requirements

I agree with Mr Howste

combining the requirements will not less man days , this is possible as per

Some factors permitting less auditor time could be, as examples:
• Organization is not “Design Responsible” and/or other Standard elements not covered in scope
• No/low risk product/processes
• Prior knowledge of organization system (e.g., already registered to another Standard by the same Registrar)
• Very small site for number of employees (e.g., Office complex only)
• Client preparedness for registration (e.g., already registered or recognized by another 3rd party scheme)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Audit schedule example (TS16949 & ISO14001) General Auditing Discussions 9
V Can a Registrar do Integrated TS16949 & ISO14001 Audits General Auditing Discussions 24
Y Can ISO 9001 Lead Auditor lead all the other Audits (TS16949, ISO14001 & ISO13485)? General Auditing Discussions 6
W Combining documentation (elements/processes) TS16949, ISO14001 & OHSAS18001 Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 12
M Advertising - Trucks with ISO9002, TS16949, ISO14001, & QS9000 written on them IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
B TS16949 / ISO14001 Training - Recommendations IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
N Is ISO14001 consultant allowed to attend ISO14001 audit? ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 17
S ISO9001:2015 and ISO14001:2015 Readiness/Self Evaluation Checklists wanted ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
B List of Legislation - Legal Register for ISO14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 3
N Audit Checklist based on ISO14001:2015 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 15
S ISO14001:2015 Factory Process Mapping ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 7
M Seeking opinion for ISO14001 team activity ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 3
P Searching for a complete audit check list based on ISO14001:2004 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 1
Marc Interview with Marek Bidwell about the revision to ISO14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 0
M IMS - Integrated ISO9001, ISO14001 & OHSAS 18001 Internal Audit Checklist Internal Auditing 3
somashekar 7 Major changes expected in ISO14001:2015 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 3
S How to Submit ISO/TS 16949 & ISO14001 Certificates to HMMA IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
C Separate Certification - Can I combine documents for ISO14001, OHSAS18001 & AS4801? Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 3
A Objectives & Targets - Continuous Improvement (ISO14001) ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 8
M To Integrate or not to Integrate (ISO9001, ISO14001 & OHSAS18001) Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 2
G ISO14001 & OHSAS18001 Internal Audit Checklist ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 2
C ISO14001, ISO 31000 & ASNZS4801 (OSHAS18001) Certification - HELP! Risk Management Principles and Generic Guidelines 9
L ISO14001 Awareness Training Materials ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 7
J Assistance on ISO14001 - Preliminary assessment of my Environmental Legal Register ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 1
S "Contract Manufacturing" - How to review the existing ISO14001 documents ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 1
M Consultant required for applying an ISO14001-2004 certification. ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 14
M ISO14001 nonconformance - no proper treatment of wastewater prior to discharge ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 6
P "Stakeholder" Survey on ISO14001 REACH and RoHS Conversations 1
B Combined ISO 9001 and ISO14001 audit Internal Auditing 5
F Getting started in ISO14001 certification ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 12
K Two Stage Certification Process - ISO14001 and ISO/TS 16949:2002 General Auditing Discussions 6
R Internal Auditor Competence - ISO14001 Annex A A.5.5 Internal Audit Internal Auditing 21
J Environmental Project - I am sure it fits into ISO14001 somewhere Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 4
P Auditing to Combined ISO9001 and ISO14001 Systems General Auditing Discussions 5
Z Combining Several Systems into One - ISO9001 + ISO14001 + OHSAS18001 (etc) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
M Automotive Mechanical Workshop Aspects and Impacts - ISO14001 Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 6
D What is "Aware of the Importance"? ISO14001 clause 4.4.2 Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 21
Z Good sites to read up on ISO14001 Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 4
D Main Elements of an EMS - ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) Auditor Interpretation ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 20
M Means to Achieve Objectives and Targets - ISO14001 4.3.4 Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 1
Colin Quality Plan for construction company - Certification to ISO9001, ISO14001 and OHSAS Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3
S Implementing ISO9001 & ISO14001 over multiple sites ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
C Good ISO14001 and 18001 Books - Looking for Recommendations Book, Video, Blog and Web Site Reviews and Recommendations 2
C What is required by ISO14001? Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 7
Y Does ISO14001 require chemical analysis? Commerical electronic equipment Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 1
D Structure for ISO14001 Team Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 3
P ISO14001 - Mandatory that all clauses / requirements be fulfilled by the organization Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 7
E Implementing ISO14001 with no training, experience or understanding of the standard Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 5
B ISO14001 - Company Wide Procedures - Multi-national & Multi-site Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 7
P ISO14001 Certification - What happens if we have several minor audit findings Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 2

Similar threads

Top Bottom