ISO9001:2000 - Training Needs and Requirements - Audit Nonconformance

[darkafar]

The end result is the focus - competent skills

I agree.
I plan to add the IE competence on the list. Except the competence performing the job, the auditor also said something else, like management skills. He said that many engineers spent many years on a job and couldn’t figure out a whole picture of how the system is running, and was not adaptable. Do you think he meant something else beside competence?

 

[Jen Kirley]

Competence is a status of capability in more than a technical sense.

Many brilliant engineers, doctors, and other subject matter experts can still render their responsible processes ineffective through a less than optimum allocation of resources--both material and human.

If your engineer is not able to apply management methods such as the Theory of Constraints (see here http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/1999/0499/Departments/D530499.HTM ) then arguably an inability to harness technical prowess into the output of his responsible processes is a practical meaning of incompetency.

This is a very common event. While line operators will have elegant training programs designed to manage their output through skill development, very often this is not done for engineers. Engineers who are very skilled in theory may bumble when performing their work according to the plan because the theory naturally varies among learners and the education sources.

So I encourage you to now only categorize the education and experience in all persons operating in your processes, but identify gaps they may have in being effective at applying their learning. Teamwork, problem solving using cause-and-effect, project planning and assessing results are, IMHO, essential elements of most any competency set and may help your engineer to better articulate his understanding of the system and appear more adaptable. I say articulate and appear because the auditor may have based remarks on what is seen. If your engineer possesses capability he didn't display to the auditor--perhaps by just not providing the answers or evidence needed to convince the auditor of competence--the verdict was delivered as a CA. I do not know your engineer but I do know that sometimes the problem is not incompetence, but underperformance.

I hope this helps!

 

[Al Rosen]

I say articulate and appear because the auditor may have based remarks on what is seen. If your engineer possesses capability he didn't display to the auditor--perhaps by just not providing the answers or evidence needed to convince the auditor of competence--the verdict was delivered as a CA. I do not know your engineer but I do know that sometimes the problem is not incompetence, but underperformance.

I wouldn't think a competent auditor would or should issue a finding based on one individual failing to show competence. It's not for the auditor to judge that. It's the auditors responsibility to evaluate the system, not the individual. There would have had to be more evidence.

 

[Jen Kirley]

I wouldn't think a competent auditor would or should issue a finding based on one individual failing to show competence. It's not for the auditor to judge that. It's the auditors responsibility to evaluate the system, not the individual. There would have had to be more evidence.

Fair enough. I have only the IE story to go on, but I agree a good auditor would be able to discern a system gap given the evidence.

 

[Wes Bucey]

I wouldn't think a competent auditor would or should issue a finding based on one individual failing to show competence. It's not for the auditor to judge that. It's the auditors responsibility to evaluate the system, not the individual. There would have had to be more evidence.

My guess is a COMPETENT auditor would not mark the individual, but would point out the SYSTEM has no way to evaluate the competence of the individual! If the system has a process in place, but it fails to catch the incompetent employee, I think that is beyond the scope of an auditor who would have to be judge and jury over the competence of every employee.

To Jennifer:
I think you did a pretty good job of explaining "how" an otherwise competent individual could fall short of the competence required for a particular position.

I think it is important to note the organization and its management have a duty

• to create a process to identify the competencies needed for a particular position and then
• to determine whether a candidate or incumbent possess those competencies necessary for the position and,
• finally, to implement a process for helping the individuals get the competency (on or off site) or replace them with folks who CAN demonstrate such competency.

These processes are what an auditor should be looking for.

The PETER PRINCIPLE is alive and well in many organizations only because there is no evaluation method to determine competency!

 

[Jim Wynne]

The PETER PRINCIPLE is alive and well in many organizations only because there is no evaluation method to determine competency!

I think there are as many cases where competency is not evaluated because it's not considered as relevant as experience (or is considered the equivalent of experience). Then there are the cases where incompetence is recognized, but nothing is done about it.

 

[JennTX]

He stated that the company did not have a training plan stating the when, where or hows they train to meet competency. Even if the training is OJT, that needs to be stated somewhere and that training needs to documented.
Also, how can a person be responsible for operators and not have some knowledge of their processes, how can he point them in the right direction for guidance?
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Al Rosen]

He stated that the company did not have a training plan stating the when, where or hows they train to meet competency. Even if the training is OJT, that needs to be stated somewhere and that training needs to documented.
Also, how can a person be responsible for operators and not have some knowledge of their processes, how can he point them in the right direction for guidance?
Just my 2 cents.

Your is worth a lot more.