ISO9001:2008 - What a complete joke!

[Geoff Withnell]

Quality management systems, including ISO are like many things in life:
If you do it, it works
If you sorta do it, it sorta works
If you don't do it, it doesn't work
if you bs doing it, it bs works.

Geoff Withnell

 

[John Broomfield]

Guys, say what you will. ISO9001 is a complete and total joke. Many make this into so much more than it has to be. QM's hide behind the BS which allows them to seem important. I cannot begin to tell you what kind of horse.... this is for a realistic standpoint.

Lets see, first you pay the RO to come into you facility and you really expect them to fail you? Come on! This entire process is complete pig pile. This is one of the biggest jokes to ever take place in the US marketplace. Heres to you China! Even your chicken feet are registared to the ISO9001:2008 standards!

Jackweed,

Broadly speaking it seems to me that you will find two types of ISO 9001 user comprising:

• Those who were made by their customers to obtain certification of their quality management system; or
• Those who enthusiatically embraced their nation's basic standard for quality management systems

Type A users are forever complaining about the documented system they did not want. Because they were made to do it they probably made a hash of documenting their QMS (that is writing the procedures around the standard instead of their organization). They may or may not enjoy the marketing benefits of sporting their certification logo.

Type B users saw the opportunity to develop their organizations' management systems so they do an even better job of converting customers' needs into cash in the bank. Their systems are well led, developed, used and improved to add value faster and prevent loss sooner. They may or may not enjoy the marketing benefits of sporting their certification logo.

I am not sure if Type A users ever become Type B users, but here at the Cove, we enjoy the entertainment.

John

 

[vanputten]

Hello Jackweed:

Is the document called ISO 9001 a total joke? Or is it a joke 1) how the standard is used / implemented and 2) how the conformity assessment industry works?

I don't think the document is a joke. I think how the standard is used and implemented is often a joke. And I think the concept that conformity assessment, to a management system standard, can be consistent and rule based is a joke.

I have said this over and over in the Cove. The document, how it is used, and how conformity to 9001 is assessed are different things. But the reality, as you have implied, is that the standard, the smoke and mirrors implementation, and conformity assessment to the standard are mostly considered to be the same thing.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Hi,

I agree with both sides, I love my Job, and I think a Quality Management System is a good think to have if you live it, but how can it be a company has a ISo 9001 certificate, and all stuff I get delivered are scrap but certified (according EN 10204) to be ok, by an external certification body, that's what we get from India .

And for sure the following situation could be discussed, but it is some kind of weird: walking trough an oil quenching company certified according to ISo 14001, and must be aware of the oil on the floor all the time?
It doesn't match, and on a bad day in my job, I can really understand Jack.

But I also believe, that companies with a livng culture for quality (independend from the standard) are the leading companies in their business, because what we as consumer expect from most of the stuff we buy daily is a good quality!!

So lets start another week of work!!

There's a common, though misguided expectation about ISO: very often people feel comfortable, thinking a company getting the certificate means the products are also certified. That is absolutely, emphatically NOT the case. During the Ford-Firestorm debacle, both companies were certified QS9000.

While I won't defend a company for having oil on the floor, I must point out that having oil on the floor isn't a clear violation of ISO14001, since that standard is silent about oil on the floor. The standard, as always gives minimum direction for developing and maintaining a system that can, when used properly, help prevent escapes/mishaps/scrap. ISO 14001 is about controlling and preventing escapes to the environment. Sorry to nitpick...

I said "can" - I did not say "will".

I said "help" - we are still responsible for properly using the system in order to enjoy good results.

 

[Randy]

Apparently the OP hasn't been present when the Lead Auditor has said something like "Nope, can do it, there's a major"...It's not really what we say but apparently everyone seems to take pretty serious something that is little more than a joke as the OP stated.

Here's a chance for you to prove your statement and have some fun at the same time...Let everything slide, don't do anything until your next surveillance or better yet until your recertification so you can share the joke with the rest of us.

I absolutely love a good joke...Kinda like playing "no guts" back when I was a young, dumb Grunt. When we were bored with nothing to do we'd get together in a circle; someone would take a frag and pull the pin; "no guts" was not being brave or stupid enough to drop it on the ground where everyone was standing.....The "joke" statement reminded me of that activity a long time ago in a land far-far away.

 

[AndyN]

Such diatribes are normally borne from the frustration of the writer. Something hasn't 'gone their way' so, now the whole thing's a farce. So, Jack, what's the frustration with? Maybe we can help. Clearly, if you look at the community of regulars here, it's not the joke you say it is. On the other hand we all know it can be very frustrating. Either way, better to enlist our help than have us respond (negatively) to your comments, I believe.

 

[tlonkey]

My feelings go back and forth on this subject but unlike the original poster I don't have any issues with the standards themselves but with the industry (you pick one) requiring the standard but not fulling their part of the bargain. My Company expends a lot of money, manpower and time to acquire and then maintain the certifications (AS/ISO) we have. We are constantly being on-site audited to the very same standards by various customers; anywhere from 1 to 4 day audits throughout the year. If our quality and delivery scorecards were lacking I could understand but as of today our quality is at 99.11% and delivery is at 98.99% overall for all customers. Yet next week I will be having an on-site 1 day audit from one of our bigger customers. So my day will be tied up completely to go over 'End Item Acceptance' and purchasing requirements. We are a small company and during this latest economic down turn we have cut back to stay afloat; I get to enjoy 5 of these 1 day audits per year from this company not counting the other customer audits on top of our surveillance audits from our registrar. We could use this money and time in other areas right now but because they are one of the big customers we spend that money on them proving that yes, in-fact the AS/ISO cert. is legit and we are meeting the customer requirements just like their scorecards say we are. Sorry for long winded rant but this is my major peeve with these standards. I could go on and on about how the customer doesn't even follow the standards that they require but........

 

[Stijloor]

My feelings go back and forth on this subject but unlike the original poster I don't have any issues with the standards themselves but with the industry (you pick one) requiring the standard but not fulling their part of the bargain. My Company expends a lot of money, manpower and time to acquire and then maintain the certifications (AS/ISO) we have. We are constantly being on-site audited to the very same standards by various customers; anywhere from 1 to 4 day audits throughout the year. If our quality and delivery scorecards were lacking I could understand but as of today our quality is at 99.11% and delivery is at 98.99% overall for all customers. Yet next week I will be having an on-site 1 day audit from one of our bigger customers. So my day will be tied up completely to go over 'End Item Acceptance' and purchasing requirements. We are a small company and during this latest economic down turn we have cut back to stay afloat; I get to enjoy 5 of these 1 day audits per year from this company not counting the other customer audits on top of our surveillance audits from our registrar. We could use this money and time in other areas right now but because they are one of the big customers we spend that money on them proving that yes, in-fact the AS/ISO cert. is legit and we are meeting the customer requirements just like their scorecards say we are. Sorry for long winded rant but this is my major peeve with these standards. I could go on and on about how the customer doesn't even follow the standards that they require but........

The Standards can not be blamed for the situation you described. That's really between you and your customer.

One of the initially cited benefits of ISO registration was reduction and eventually elimination of 2nd Party (customer) audits...

Stijloor.

 

[AndyN]

The Standards can not be blamed for the situation you described. That's really between you and your customer.

One of the initially cited benefits of ISO registration was reduction and eventually elimination of 2nd Party (customer) audits...

Stijloor.

I was wondering if it might be due to a lack of confidence in the CB - some CBs have very little visibility in certain markets or their reputation is poor, so the customer will send in the troops.

 

[tlonkey]

The Standards can not be blamed for the situation you described. That's really between you and your customer.

One of the initially cited benefits of ISO registration was reduction and eventually elimination of 2nd Party (customer) audits...

Stijloor.

Haven't seen this happen yet; perhaps others have but not in my experience. I have also addressed this with several customers without help other than they tell me it could be worse if we were on their watch list.

Again; if our quality and delivery was not up to customer requirements I can understand the additional audits by the customer; we work hard to maintain our performance but it doesn't seem to matter.

My gripe is the additional cost my company must put forth. If the AS/ISO Certs. are not good enough, along with our performance then why make it a requirement to be certified.