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ISO9001:2008 - What a complete joke!

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Bill Pflanz

#31
From a previous posting, jackweed describes himself as:

I am the Quality Manager for my US division of a multi-national company. Our HQ is located in the UK but our North American HQ is where I am located. We currently hold a stand alone ISO9001 certification for the US. We are moving to a global certification matrix under a new certification body.
After reading his earlier questions, one wonders if he was having a bad day with his CB. Its okay to be frustrated with a CB but this posting is not consistent with what you would expect from a QM who is responsible for the work described.

Bill Pflanz
 
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bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
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#32
With so many "less-than-serious" CB's out there, why is it that the majority of folks don't believe that customer should influence supplier's choice of CB's?
Those of us that have been around a while and remember the old days when customers routinely did their own audits know that the variation between customer auditors was no different then. So, is it less a defect of CB and closer to the way of the world? (normal distribution? :tg:)
 
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ralphsulser

#33
Those of us that have been around a while and remember the old days when customers routinely did their own audits know that the variation between customer auditors was no different then. So, is it less a defect of CB and closer to the way of the world? (normal distribution? :tg:)

I have read the post and replies and have been around doing quality systems for eons. My take is this: ISO9001 and it's variations, TS, AS, etc. are the right things to do and contribute to improvements. The standards are just the written guideline to get where you need to be to be competitive. If a company is certified to the standard, then they know they have to keep everything up to compliance and not then sit back on their duffs. When you know you have a routine surveillance audit or re-certification audit coming up you know what has to be done. You know to keep prepared you have to keep the systems alive and healthy. Continual improvement will occur if the systems are managed properly, which then should contribute to improved profitability. Maybe the ISO 2008 upgrade was a joke, but not the standard.
 
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TamTom

#34
The Standards can not be blamed for the situation you described. That's really between you and your customer.

One of the initially cited benefits of ISO registration was reduction and eventually elimination of 2nd Party (customer) audits...

Stijloor.
And here we are back to China Chicken Feet; because in some countries the certificate is easily earned and no worth the paper that is written on it, customer goes back to control the supplier on their own.

And we all need a job to earn some money, so be fair, and give your customer employees something to do!!

TamTom
 
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JaneB

#35
Jack,
Ho hum.

I suggest you provide some data and statistics, rather than the kind of unsubstantiated and highly subjective opinion which anyone can (and does) toss out there.

Decisions based on fact is an underlying principle of the Standard and of quality. For good reason.
 
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ChrissieO

#37
I love all the standards, 9001, 14001, 18001,16949, customer specific requirements etc cos they keep me in a job and that certainly adds value to me:lol:...........the clue is in the job title

UK Logistics Compliance Coordinator & Lead Auditor:yes:

Chrissie
 
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bdames

#38
There are two potential misunderstandings here. One of these has to do with ISO 9001 itself. The other has to do with the ISO 9001 certification process.

First, let’s deal with ISO 9001
ISO 9001 is nothing more than the latest version of preventive practices that have been used since the beginning of the industrial revolution. 200 years ago Eli Whitney built cotton gins and knew full well that if you change a document or specification but don’t control the change and notify people, that this was going to cause a problem. He also knew that you don’t assign someone to do something unless they were capable of performing the task correctly. Today, document control and employee competence are just two components of a full blown management system that is described in ISO 9001. Every part of ISO 9001 is preventive and adds value to any serious user. Take a minute and look at any part of the ISO 9001 requirements and ask yourself if you would want to deal with any supplier that said they were not going to that one part – from corrective action to purchasing – it all makes sense. If you use this approach to think through what ISO 9001 really expects you will eventually come to understand the value.

Next, lets deal with the ISO 9001 certification process. ISO 9001 implementation is only as good as those who implement and use it. It is quite frankly possible to utilize ISO 9001 and become ISO certified while doing many wrong things. You can write too many procedures, you can write procedures that people only use when their auditor is checking on them, etc. This is clearly not the fault of ISO 9001. I have seen it many times where management says; “just write a bunch of procedures and then we will be done”. Well, these problems are clearly self inflicted. There are also differences in the way Certification Bodies do their audits and issue ISO 9001 certifications. In the beginning of ISO Certification (late 1980’s) There were some significant differences in the methods, interpretation, discipline and integrity of Certification Bodies. These problems have very largely faded away, largely due to the discipline and efforts of an organization called ANAB. ANAB is responsible for auditing and Accrediting the Certification Bodies. This “Accreditation” process will never be perfect, however, it is pretty darn good. ANAB cannot control everything a Certification Body does, any more than a Certification Body can control everything that an individual auditor that they employ can do. Just remember, that there are controls in place and these controls are working pretty darn well.

If you have personally witnessed issues that are not right, I suggest that you report these to ANAB. I do not believe they will take reports of this type anonymously. You will need to provide details that they can actually investigate – after all this is an evidence based process. ANAB’s mission is to provide discipline, integrity and confidence to all who are involved. If you are unwilling to do something about this or unwilling to officially report this, then you are part of the problem.
 
Q

Quality96 - 2011

#39
Jack, it sounds like your expectations are far too high in regards to the intent of ISO 9001. It's just a foundation for a QMS, that is all. It is up to you to build on that foundation to create a functioning QMS that provides a tangible ROI. If you just implement ISO 9001 bare-bones system just to pass an audit an get a certificate, then your implementation is the problem. ISO and most QA professionals do a poor job of explaining the real purpose of ISO 9001. I have designed and implemented a custom QMS for 3 different companies with the knowledge gained from ISO 9001. Each of these companies continue to show an ROI using the QMS I put in place. Any QA professional can design and implement a QMS without using ISO, but ISO can, and does, provide a great foundation.
 
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jasonb067

#40
First of all I truly believe in the value of a well developed and correctly implemented QMS no matter which basis it draws from. I also think that the ISO9001:2008 standard is a great basis!

My co-workers and I have recently began to become frustrated with the various certifications and I have thus created the ability inside my mind to see value in the rant which started this conversation.

Here is the main point of frustration for me in particular. We spend time developing a system that is compliant to TS16949 in my case. We develop a system that works and clearly works well for us and all is good. Our customerS then decide that we must also be compliant to their separate operating systems (example QSB although ALL of the companies which we sell to have their own system). Then we have 14001, MMOG, CQI9, CQI11, CQI12, CQI14...

Whatever happened to...
Big three move to eliminate redundant quality audits. (Ford Motor Co.; Chrysler Corp.; and General Motors Co.)


Purchasing | December 10, 1992 | 393 words | Copyright

Not ISO fault but it is something which should be addressed.

:topic:During last year one of our plants was audited 15 of 25 working days to the various systems listed above. IN ONE MONTH! No flexiability from our customers due to product launch. This is a profitable facility with 0 actual (not baked) ppm to the customers over the past 8 years. Not exactly what one would term an "out of control" facility.

I feel much better just having typed it. Thanks.
 
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