ISO9001:2008 - What a complete joke!

[ralphsulser]

First of all I truly believe in the value of a well developed and correctly implemented QMS no matter which basis it draws from. I also think that the ISO9001:2008 standard is a great basis!

My co-workers and I have recently began to become frustrated with the various certifications and I have thus created the ability inside my mind to see value in the rant which started this conversation.

Here is the main point of frustration for me in particular. We spend time developing a system that is compliant to TS16949 in my case. We develop a system that works and clearly works well for us and all is good. Our customerS then decide that we must also be compliant to their separate operating systems (example QSB although ALL of the companies which we sell to have their own system). Then we have 14001, MMOG, CQI9, CQI11, CQI12, CQI14...

Whatever happened to...
Big three move to eliminate redundant quality audits. (Ford Motor Co.; Chrysler Corp.; and General Motors Co.)

[URL="http://www.encyclopedia.com/Purchasing/publications.aspx?pageNumber=1"]Purchasing [/URL]| December 10, 1992 | 393 words | Copyright

Not ISO fault but it is something which should be addressed.

During last year one of our plants was audited 15 of 25 working days to the various systems listed above. IN ONE MONTH! No flexiability from our customers due to product launch. This is a profitable facility with 0 actual (not baked) ppm to the customers over the past 8 years. Not exactly what one would term an "out of control" facility.

I feel much better just having typed it. Thanks.

Sure sounds familiar, We also had Ford Q1 on top of all the other stuff listed, and they liked to come from Detroit to SC in the winter to help us because we were only 80 miles from Myrtle Beach. But, now I'm in aircraft manufacturing and we don't have customer audits here, but we do have FAA and registrars.

 

[Bev D]

jackweed13, I've noticed that this is the third day since your posting and you have not entered into the discourse any further. Could it be that you statements were of a "pot-stirring" nature? If so, it appears that you were successful.

more of a 'fragging' I'd say. the clue may lie in his user name.
and he's been successful...

 

[vanputten]

The International Accreditation Forum has a complaint process.

If we do not get results from our Certification Body, do we complain to ANAB or the IAF?

http://www.anab.org/feedback/complaints.aspx

From the ANAB website:

ANAB Complaint Center
Home>Feedback>Complaints
The third-party conformity assessment system includes numerous requirements that complaints be effectively addressed, and you may find it useful to read about it before filing your complaint.

If you would like to file a complaint with ANAB proceed here. You will be prompted to log in. If you have not created a username and password please do so here.

If you would like to search complaints filed with ANAB after 18 September 2006 click here. If you would like to search complaints filed with ANAB prior 18 September 2006 click here. To file a new complaint, click here; log in here to proceed if you need to create a usename and password.




From the IAF website:

http://www.iaf.nu/

About IAF

16. Complaints

The IAF Board treats any complaints with the utmost concern and will deal with them expeditiously and in confidence.All complaints involving IAF members or certification/registration bodies accredited by IAF members are regarded as extremely serious. Anyone wishing to submit a complaint concerning the operations of an IAF member or accredited certification/registration body should do so by emailing the relevant details to the IAF Corporate Secretary (see contact information below) together with any necessary documentation required to substantiate the complaint.

A copy of the IAF mechanism for dealing with complaints is available for information from IAF PR1:2004 Procedure for the Investigation and Resolution of complaints.

Contact Information - Contact the Secretary of IAF at the following address -Email [email protected]

 

[Sidney Vianna]

If we do not get results from our Certification Body, do we complain to ANAB or the IAF?

If you don't get the results you expect from your CB, shouldn't you treat the issue as a customer/supplier relationship? If you can't get your issue resolved with your CB, why would they remain as your supplier of conformity assessment services?

I think there is a lot of hypocrisy going around. First, many organizations see certificates as a commodity and make a decision on CB selection, solely on price. Then, they complain that the auditor is incompetent, speaks with his mouth full and smells funny. They are embarrassed to let the top management speaking with a "duly-qualified-yet-moronic" auditor. Shouldn't they realize that they get what they pay for?

Even more hypocrisy are those who expect their supplier registrar's to keep the supplier "toeing the line", but, in their turn, they want their own external auditors to be very understanding of their organizational challenges and dysfunctions, and not write them up when major gaps are found.

Sad. Registrars - Low price - good deal?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Sure sounds familiar, We also had Ford Q1 on top of all the other stuff listed, and they liked to come from Detroit to SC in the winter to help us because we were only 80 miles from Myrtle Beach. But, now I'm in aircraft manufacturing and we don't have customer audits here, but we do have FAA and registrars.

Ah, yes, isn't it nice that with all the other demands on Ford personnel's time during these difficult months, they still found the time to provide you with altruistic and benefical kindness in the form of help...God bless 'em... (I wonder if the folks living in Wisconsin were granted an equal amount of help...)

 

[somashekar]

Hi,

I agree with both sides, I love my Job, and I think a Quality Management System is a good think to have if you live it, but how can it be a company has a ISo 9001 certificate, and all stuff I get delivered are scrap but certified (according EN 10204) to be ok, by an external certification body, that's what we get from India .

And for sure the following situation could be discussed, but it is some kind of weird: walking trough an oil quenching company certified according to ISo 14001, and must be aware of the oil on the floor all the time?
It doesn't match, and on a bad day in my job, I can really understand Jack.

But I also believe, that companies with a livng culture for quality (independend from the standard) are the leading companies in their business, because what we as consumer expect from most of the stuff we buy daily is a good quality!!

So lets start another week of work!!

Well, I have my side of the story when today I get over hundred thousand adhesive backed converted and die cut material with valid shelf life having very poor adhesive strength and this from an european supplier approved by our european customer for us to buy from. I can throw his valid ISO certificate off my file and blame everyone including the standard.... but then where do we land ?
The management of change is sometimes very poorly addressed and the need to validate in actual application is seldom taken into consideration. One problem creates many here for us. Tracking, customer early warning, supplier CA process, Production stop, Tele conferences .... and more. Our system has all in place and we try our best to USE the established procedures.

 

[John Broomfield]

Well, I have my side of the story when today I get over hundred thousand adhesive backed converted and die cut material with valid shelf life having very poor adhesive strength and this from an european supplier approved by our european customer for us to buy from. I can throw his valid ISO certificate off my file and blame everyone including the standard.... but then where do we land ?
The management of change is sometimes very poorly addressed and the need to validate in actual application is seldom taken into consideration. One problem creates many here for us. Tracking, customer early warning, supplier CA process, Production stop, Tele conferences .... and more. Our system has all in place and we try our best to USE the established procedures.

Somashekar,

Did your problem with poor adhesive come from your design process (7.3.3)? For example, what pull-off strength was specified in the purchase order and what packaging was specified in the purchase order (7.4.2) to the stop loss of volatiles and inadequate adhesion?

Lastly, did your system allow you to pay for the hundred thousand nonconforming adhesive backed converted and die cut material (tiles?)?

John

 

[somashekar]

Somashekar,

Did your problem with poor adhesive come from your design process (7.3.3)? For example, what pull-off strength was specified in the purchase order and what packaging was specified in the purchase order (7.4.2) to the stop loss of volatiles and inadequate adhesion?

Lastly, did your system allow you to pay for the hundred thousand nonconforming adhesive backed converted and die cut material (tiles?)?

John

Customer approved design, Customer approved supplier, Customer approved materials. These are regular supplies made over several years and supplied in roll form. An established test procedure for adhesion test by way of peel on foam base is in place and few samples from few roll is checked, as all rolls are from the same processed batch. Problem appeares deeper inside roll and shows up in final product after 24 hours of storage in packing pouch. More samples taken from patially used roll shows a fail when tested per protocol.
Something has gone wrong somewhere and we are jointly investigating. Our analysis shows poor adhesive strength. Payment is done as this is the terms of import.

 

[John Broomfield]

Customer approved design, Customer approved supplier, Customer approved materials. These are regular supplies made over several years and supplied in roll form. An established test procedure for adhesion test by way of peel on foam base is in place and few samples from few roll is checked, as all rolls are from the same processed batch. Problem appeares deeper inside roll and shows up in final product after 24 hours of storage in packing pouch. More samples taken from patially used roll shows a fail when tested per protocol.
Something has gone wrong somewhere and we are jointly investigating. Our analysis shows poor adhesive strength. Payment is done as this is the terms of import.

Somashekar,

Customer approved suppliers are usually the most difficult to deal with. I hope they and your customer are assisting fully with your investigation into:

1. The material specifications
2. The packaging specifications
3. The supplier's design, production (and verification records) and shipping processes
4. The storage conditions during transport
5. The storage conditions at your place
6. The environmental conditions during your production
7. etc...

I am glad to read that you did not rely fully on the supplier's certificated system for the quality of materials.

Lastly, the organization that causes the nonconformity may not invest in improvement unless they are paying the price of nonconformity.

I wish you every success,

John

 

[gbcqc]

Guys, say what you will. ISO9001 is a complete and total joke. Many make this into so much more than it has to be. QM's hide behind the BS which allows them to seem important. I cannot begin to tell you what kind of horse.... this is for a realistic standpoint.

Lets see, first you pay the RO to come into you facility and you really expect them to fail you? Come on! This entire process is complete pig pile. This is one of the biggest jokes to ever take place in the US marketplace. Heres to you China! Even your chicken feet are registared to the ISO9001:2008 standards!

Don't knock the Chinese chicken feet. They are good, my wife cooks them sometimes. Hey, everybody, They taste like chicken too.