Issue with Audit Days - Surveillance audit

[Tom W]

Hello everyone - it has been a longtime since I have posted but I am back.

A quick question:

What suggestions do you have for the following:

Surveillance audit conducted. It was a four day audit with one auditor. Looking in the guidebook at the audit day requirements I find it should have been 3 days without any discounts for corporate cert or non design responsible. Which would have taken it to 2 days.

To top that off the registrar called one week before the audit and said "Gee these audit days seem excessive, well we can look at it next year". That got me thinking - who has the responsibility to ensure that the correct number of days are scheduled and that they are not excessive? (Meaning over-paying for the audit).

I looked at it at the time of scheduling and expressed my concern to the registrar but was told that the audit days had to be four days. Now they say they might be able to reduce them next year??? What changed? Why wait until next year? The auditor even felt like it was excessive.

Background info -

Number of employees on the site = 47
Annual surveillance.

Any comments would be helpful. Thanks.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Tom, what is the Standard(s) your management system is being assessed against?

Don't you have a copy of the original proposal/contract with the registrar?

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Welcome back, Tom. Good to see you again

Surveillance audit conducted. It was a four day audit with one auditor.

Four mandays to audit a 47 people facility? :mg: What on earth do you do anyway? Spacecraft? I agree with Sidney, that we need to know what standard it concerned, but I have to say that sounds a lot...

/Claes

 

[Hershal]

It is possible that - depending on the registrar - they see the writing on the wall. ISO 17011 (which will replace Guide 62) will require more in-depth audits.

Accreditation assessments are often longer and more detailed than registration audits, and a recognition evaluation (e.g. APLAC) may involve a team of several for a week. I mention this just to give a point of reference for the potential for why your audit was longer.

Hershal

 

[Tom W]

Sorry about that.

It is ISO / TS 16949:2002.

We are a commercial heat treat.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Tom, for the headcount and the type of processes you have in place, yes, I do agree that 4 auditor days for an annual surveillance audit seems excessive. Not counting the fact that you have a multi-site (and possibly corporate) certification scheme, the document titled Rules for achieving IATF recognition, Second Edition, stipulates 4.5 auditor days for the Stage 2 (Initial) Certification audit for an organization between 40-54 employees and 3 minimum audit days for the RECERTIFICATION audit. So, without knowing a lot about your organization, other than you are in the specialty heat treat business, I would estimate that the appropriate range for your annual surveillance audits would be anywhere from 2-3 auditor days.

Knowing that the IAOB/IATF are scrutinizing VERY carefully all TS audit programs, some registrars might be overly zealous, but, as I mentioned before, the number of auditor days should have been determined during the proposal phase. I also see in your public profile that you mentioned the number of employees in your organization as 100. Did you mean the plant you work at, or all 3 plants?

And PS to Hershal. ISO 17011 is not the successor of ISO Guide 62, but ISO Guide 61.

ISO 17021 will replace ISO Guide 62. And I don't follow your comment about ISO 17021 requiring more time for certification audits. Could you give more details? The one thing that the new ISO 17021 will change about the process is to make the initial certification process a MANDATORY two stage process.

 

[Tom W]

I am confident that this is a case of just a mistake on the registrars side. The interpretation of the audit days got screwed up. Looking at the original quote it was 2.5 days for each surveillance audit (one auditor). But somewhere in-between that it changed based on a different interpretation.

I am waiting to see what they say but the response is very slow.

Thanks again.

We have 3 facilities - I was addressing just one of them. Actually three separate audits but one certificate listing all three.

 

[gpainter]

Please remember the guideline tables are guidance. We were told by our registrar that more time could be added depending on the auditor being able to complete the audit or other aspects.

 

[gpainter]

. Tom, also remember that the registrar is your supplier and they do you a service. Question this and try to get it reduced if you think that it is excessive. There are other registrars that will do you service

 

[Tom W]

Thanks - I think it is just a misunderstanding on their part - the problem is they are not very receptive to answering my questions. Even the auditor put in his report that the audit days seemed excessive. We will have to see how it goes.