Japanese companies don?t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Quality

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#21
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

{Emphasis added}

This is typical of the hyperbole that characterizes the promotion of SS. Unfortunately, it's all tied up in logical fallacies and has no basis in empirical observation. To wit:
  1. Assuming that the "huge benefit" is real, could it have been achieved by conscientious application of traditional methods, without the expense of SS training and indoctrination? What role does leadership play in improvement processes?
  2. Where are the GE and Motorola "huge benefits" documented in objective form, wherein the actual financials are revealed and examined?
  3. How is it possible for Rolls Royce et al to "...prove that every single project contributed to better customer satisfaction"? How is customer satisfaction enumerated, and where is the proof? Are they able to show a direct causal relationship between SS and customer happiness? I'd like to examine the "proof."
Jim,

I believe that this is true for any improvement process/program with a catchy or specific name or title attached to it. The "improvement" labels are often very divisive (re: Cove discussions) and are often used as an argument to demonstrate (and often based on hype) that "MY" or "OUR" program is the best. Improvement is an emotional term, everyone wants it, wants it badly, and wants it now. We admire organizations that claim to "have done it" secretly wishing that we would like to be as "they." I agree that companies that have done very well have used solid leadership and the basic quality tools to their advantage without the labeling and the hype. Those are the silent winners.....

Stijloor.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#22
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

J Improvement is an emotional term, everyone wants it, wants it badly, and wants it now. We admire organizations that claim to "have done it" secretly wishing that we would like to be as "they."
Speaking only for myself, I do not, secretly or otherwise, admire organizations that think that marketing claims, empty rhetoric and unverifiable fiscal gains are a substitute for the hard work necessary to actually make a difference.
 

Steve Prevette

Deming Disciple
Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

A few thoughts. (Yes, I know I've been outspoken against Six Sigma).

I don't think there is much to be gained in "bashing" different methodologies. I do get a little peeved at the "YOU MUST GO SIX SIGMA TO BE GOOD" mentality out there. Example - ASQ seems to keep equating Quality = Six Sigma.

Hopefully, I've documented here and elsewhere the theories and methodologies we are using at Hanford, and the success in safety improvements we are having. Just came back from the Washington State Governor's Industrial Safety Conference with a bunch of people "wanting to be like us".

I suppose since I am not dependent upon consulting money, plus what I've written has been under Government contract, I give "my" stuff away for free. (Acually Deming, Shewhart, Ackoff, and Peters stuff). Go to http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=1156&parent=1144 and you'll see one way to be successful. Certainly not the ONLY way however. You can even come to a workshop on October 29 and 30 when I present those materials. The interesting thing is that I am able to place everything "in the open". Nothing is hidden, it's part of the public record. I don't think the Six Sigma folks can say the same thing.

So this thread (one of many) started with the observation that the Japaness don't do Six Sigma or ISO. Does that make Six Sigma or ISO "BAD"? Does that make the Japanese "BAD"? The answer to both questions is "NO".

I just want people to know there are alternatives to six sigma and ISO out there.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#24
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Speaking only for myself, I do not, secretly or otherwise, admire organizations that think that marketing claims, empty rhetoric and unverifiable fiscal gains are a substitute for the hard work necessary to actually make a difference.
Absolutely!

Interesting what a constant marketing barrage can do...
 
#25
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Speaking only for myself, I do not, secretly or otherwise, admire organizations that think that marketing claims, empty rhetoric and unverifiable fiscal gains are a substitute for the hard work necessary to actually make a difference.
Hear, hear!
I am reminded of a former employer who had slashed their annual cost of poor quality from $200,000 to $100,000. This is very admirable and was undoubtedly verified and documented. Unfortunately, the annual cost of the programs and personnel to realize and maintain this improvement was about $150,000. Sometimes good enough is just that, good enough.
 
W

wmarhel

#26
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

A few thoughts. (Yes, I know I've been outspoken against Six Sigma).

I don't think there is much to be gained in "bashing" different methodologies. I do get a little peeved at the "YOU MUST GO SIX SIGMA TO BE GOOD" mentality out there. Example - ASQ seems to keep equating Quality = Six Sigma.


I just want people to know there are alternatives to six sigma and ISO out there.
Another methodology which is even more stringent about their methodology is Shainin and their Red X concept. Of course, their program names have morphed to sound "more interesting". The original classes were essentially apprentice, tradesman and master.

According to their License Agreement from their website:

----------------------------------
Shainin License Agreement

We require anyone who attends a Shainin class, symposium, or presentation to sign a license agreement.

This agreement protects both the clients and Shainin’s proprietary information revealed and grants permission for each attendee to use the information in his or her company.
---------------------------------

Wayne
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#28
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

You know, there are some topics on this Forum that inflame passions, and this is one of them. SS is not bad or good, ISO is not bad or good, etc. They are methods, systems, that package basically the same quality tools.

The tools are not new, they have been around for decades. But the package is. That is not bad.

Like any tool, tools are not good or bad. What we do with them is what counts. The companies that get benefit from one program or the other, God Bless them. They don't have to prove anything. And we don't need to make this an either or situation. If you don't want to use these systems, that's OK. If you want to use the tools, but in a different package, that's OK too.

I think we should focus on getting the improvements, and less on which system do we rally behind.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#29
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Speaking only for myself, I do not, secretly or otherwise, admire organizations that think that marketing claims, empty rhetoric and unverifiable fiscal gains are a substitute for the hard work necessary to actually make a difference.
Jim. You seem to be summarizing what many others are posting. While I agree that over hype is a pain in the a55 (or ar5e as we say over here!) if we agree that there is no place for marketing then that puts Covers firmly in the Luddite camp.

For my sins I have a marketing (as well as engineering, quality, systems, etc., etc.) background and firmly believe organizations cannot afford to hide their respective lights under (respective) bushels.

I know that there is a quotation:
Ralph Waldo Emerson said:
Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.
But truth to tell you won't be able to sell your product unless you have:
  • a pricing strategy,
  • promote the fact your mousetrap is better than anything else on the market and
  • set up an effective distribution channel
to get it to the people that need it - all part of marketing.
 
M

M Greenaway

#30
Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Yes Six Sigma has been good marketing for quality concepts that have been around for donkeys yonks (a long time), and has successfully sold these concepts at last to a great many companies so that must be a good thing right ?

I know its just us quality people that have also been doing it for donkeys yonks and getting nowhere are now slightly peeved that this new kid on the block has overtaken us at 100mph and far outstripped even our most ambitious dreams.

Personally I am over it.....
 
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