Job Postings - Replying to Job Postings with Questions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Al Rosen

Holed-up in a Hotel in South Florida
Staff member
Super Moderator
#1
I think the thread should be closed after the OP and responses should be through the poster's profile. Employment discussions should be private.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

I think the job listing, itself, should go into the Moderator queue BEFORE it is allowed to go public. Almost every instance where the ensuing comments have taken an "edge" is simply because the person making the listing did not make a full and complete disclosure by following the suggestions listed in these threads:
Employers and recruiters:
Suggested job listing template
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=17473
Position Openings: Posting Guidelines for Companies and Recruiters - July 2006
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7807
Companies and Recruiters Advertising Jobs are NOT Vetted!
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8342
Position Openings: Posting Guidelines for Companies and Recruiters - July 2006
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=7807


Sadly, most of the folks responding with an "edge" to their remarks have either of the following two things in common:
  • They have no personal intention of qualifying for the job, but they feel they can do a better job of moderating the thread than the current Board of Moderators and strive to do so via a public forum rather than simply clicking on the "report this post" button and letting the moderators do their job.
OR
  • They are naive candidates who have not read through these Forums as part of their job hunting strategy:
Candidates:
Thinking about a New Job for New Year?
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19619
Resume and cover letter - How good are yours?
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=10169
The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19094
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9325



My suggestion is for folks to read through the hoops ASQ makes employers jump through before accepting and running a PAID job listing.

(http://careers.asq.org/employers/)

A look through the ASQ job listings

(http://careers.asq.org/search/results/index.cfm?ss=0&so=DESC&sb=&p=6)
will show that EVERY ad discloses the identity of the actual employer. In addition, a Profile of the company is also provided so the candidate can do a little research prior to making the decision to apply or not apply for a job.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

I think the job listing, itself, should go into the Moderator queue BEFORE it is allowed to go public. Almost every instance where the ensuing comments have taken an "edge" is simply because the person making the listing did not make a full and complete disclosure by following the suggestions listed...
If you expect into job opening posts to go to the Moderator queue BEFORE it is allowed to go public, then you will have to personally accept responsibility for timely contact and follow up.

They were suggestions, not requirements. You're blaming the person posting the job for not following your specific directions rather than thanking the person posting the job for taking the time and effort to Register and post the job. Strike 1 against someone who is just posting a job opening for not taking the time to get to know the forum, its 'tenor', what your specific expectations are, and how things work here. We can eliminate a lot of potential job postings by taking that stance in my opinion.

The 'Full and complete disclosure' issue is dead meat. I've never seen a 'full and complete disclosure' until I started a job. I had one job where I was hired to evaluate complex circuit card assemblies (aka LRUs - aka Line Replaceable Units - Used in High Reliability aerospace and sub-sea environments {Think critical missions in extreme and quickly varying environments}) - Finite element analysis (and I was excited about it because I LOVED the software I got to work with! And I LOVED being involved in the design of complex CCA assemblies.), but the first day of work I was asked: "Can you manage our test laboratory? It's loosing money." I said "Yes, I've taken math courses so I guess I can look at books and figure out where the money is coming from, going to and where the losses are..." Which I did - Big frickin' deal - Some 20+ years ago it was what is now called 'Lean', amongst other terms, me thinks. Following the money is easy. I was trained in Inter-cellular/Intra-cellular and Inter-organ/Intra-organ chemical reactions (molecular biology) and effects, so following a money trail and diagnosing the system wasn't very difficult. I laugh every time I see 'Systems' or 'Process Approach' mentioned these days because that's how I was educated 30 years ago in a sciences based curriculum... :read: As if a 'Systems' or 'Process Approach' is in some way 'NEW' because it has to do with manufacturing or other business system.... :rolleyes:

Yet I was unhappy because I really wanted to focus on finite element analysis as a specialty, not how to make a laboratory financially self-sufficient. Laboratory Management had nothing to do with what I was hired for - What I expected. Bottom line was the money was right and I quit my other job so I didn't have much immediate choice. I've spoken with others over the years who had the same experience so I know it's not totally rare where a person is hired for a specific position and end up doing something totally different.

On the other hand, I learned many things I wouldn't have otherwise. I got to see our designs, and other companies designs, as they went through environmental testing - Vibration, Shock, Torpedo Hit (Mil-S-901C if I remember correctly), High Altitude, Explosive Atmosphere, Mold and Mildew, Salt Water Exposure, etc., etc. I got to see so many failure modes and got to understand them with respect to their designs that I very much appreciate the experience in retrospect.

I really like working with standards.





And I got some 'business' experience... :notme:

Now - That said, there is the aspect of 'protecting' visitors here in the Elsmar Cove forums from 'unscrupulous' recruiters or companies (Part of the 'Full and complete disclosure' debate). Unfortunately, I have to respond by saying 'Buyer Beware'. I cannot, nor can anyone here, guarantee someone will not be 'tricked' in some way by a recruiter or potential employer. If I knew of any way of doing this without fail I would do so. Be real - Even ASQ 'Vetting' is not 100% effective.

More on Protecting Visitors Here from 'Unscrupulous' recruiters or companies: As an example, I see these days there are, at least in the US, a lot of home owners who are defaulting on their home and credit card loans. I feel sorry for them. I really do. I know there are people out there that can convince you they're speaking in tongues. My point is what I notice is that most of these people took mortgages they couldn't afford, or who were (my apologies to anyone whom this offends) dumb enough to do something like take the bet of an adjustable rate mortgage and/or a 'no money down, interest only' loan. I can't conceive of taking out any kind of loan without 1. A Maximum Fixed Repayment Time, 2. A Fixed Interest Rate, and 3. No Prepayment Penalty. There really is nothing different here. If someone posts a job opening, even if you or I 'vet' it, there is no guarantee that what the person agrees to will even be the same as what they expected. I will grant you that what someone is hired for is usually what they will end up doing. This is only to point out that every situation is different and none of us can 'protect' people from 'Unscrupulous' recruiters or companies. At some point people have to take it upon themselves to 'Vet' a job opening and they can only do that by contacting the person posting about the job and having a 1 on 1 conversation.

NOTE: This isn't the ASQ. Please do not use apples to oranges comparisons. This is a small time bulletin board in the scheme of things. There's no charge for posting a job opening and there's no 'Vetting'. It's 'Buyer Beware'. For what I'm doing here I'm not making enough $ to even be going through some of this much less 'Vetting' every job posting. Give me what the ASQ makes and then we can start talking about how the ASQ does things vs. How we do things here. Here is Free, which is what I think this site is all about. The ASQ charges a fee for a posting and depends upon its reputation to 'speak' for the company posting. Elsmar Coves forums is a speck in the wind in comparison to respect to the ASQ in many respects. If that wasn't the case I could charge outrageous fees here for certain access privileges, advertising space, job openings, and such.

Now - If you - Wes - Personally want to vet every ad (technically, per your request it's your forum), then let's talk those terms. In the past, I thought we had discussions where vetting was discussed and it came out to a draw. I said let them post. There's no 'Moderation Queue Delay' to confuse the poster. Then, since you get an email, as I will now, if you (or I) have a question, we can use the PM system or email to contact the poster for clarifications. At one time, about 2 or 3 years ago we did put in what I just restored - Replies go in a moderation queue. We stopped that because there was a big hullabaloo over people replying multiple times because they didn't see their reply added to the thread right away which is the 'standard' here. So, they'd reply multiple times even though the 'transfer screen' told them that their post would go into a Moderation Queue and would not show until a Moderator approved the post.

It is now set up so that someone with a job opening can post it and it will show immediately, but no replies will appear unless a moderator 'releases' the post to the public to see. I expect these to be few because I believe in almost all cases it is best for the interested people to contact the person posting the job opening directly / personally.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

OUR personal experiences in job hunting and acquisition may be interesting, but they are not necessarily typical for the typical job candidate.

I certainly don't want to return to the "wink and nod" system prevalent in the 60's when interviewers used to add a little "code number" to an applicant's data sheet indicating "unwanted" attributes ranging from skin color and religion to body type and probability of leaving a job for child bearing.

An applicant is normally in an inferior position in the job hunt simply because he or she doesn't have enough information about the employer, the bosses, coworkers, and job conditions, nor about fair salary ranges.

If he accepts the job and changes his location and burns bridges on the previous job to accept the new one, he suffers irreparable damage if the actual job is completely different from what he bargained for. The company, however, merely fires one employee and hires another with no lasting damage other than a small monetary setback if it feels the candidate doesn't meet expectations once on the job, despite the fact it had every opportunity to check anything about the candidate, ranging from credit to neighbors' opinions.

The regulars here in the Cove represent a vast reservoir of experience in obtaining and keeping and even leaving jobs. Candidates sometimes need to have a dose of reality available when looking for a new job. Some folks can't interpret whether they REALLY qualify for a job or not and may spend time and money chasing jobs for which they are either over- or under-qualified.


We have some good advice in various job-related threads here in the Cove, but the simple fact is a person desperate for a job often omits the basics of researching how to get an appropriate job to fit his desires, skills, and experience. Why should we keep more experienced folks from pointing out discrepancies or shortcomings in job ads as an alert to such job seekers? I would prefer folks with NEGATIVE COMMENTS use the "report post" button, allowing moderators to insert necessary info or take the ad offline until the employer clarified the discrepancy, but certainly, positive comments or pointers on framing an application would be welcome additions to a thread. One of our newer moderators pointed out such a thread with good comments that seem to meet a desired standard here
(http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=23680)
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

Wes, I assume you want to try to protect people some how, and I understand that. But - How are you (or I, or any of us) going to know things like whether interviewers use a little "code number" to an applicant's data sheet indicating "unwanted" attributes. All of this makes for good rhetoric, but that's about it.

As to aspects such as "An applicant is normally in an inferior position in the job hunt simply because he or she doesn't have enough information about the employer, the bosses, coworkers, and job conditions, nor about fair salary ranges.", I don't think it's our business here to discern all these things, nor can we. For every person who applies, it is the responsibility of the job applicant to find out the particulars, and for each person who applies the recruiter or HR person may offer different terms / conditions depending upon the qualifications (or the perceived qualifications) of the applicant. Welcome to the real world. It is the unusual applicant who has the upper hand in these situations.

You say "Some folks can't interpret whether they REALLY qualify for a job or not and may spend time and money chasing jobs for which they are either over- or under-qualified." Does that mean you intend to, or want to, provide some sort of personal service educating people as to what they qualify for? if that is your intention, by all means offer your personal coaching service to people.

You say "Why should we keep more experienced folks from pointing out discrepancies or shortcomings in job ads as an alert to such job seekers?" We're not. If someone wants to point out a problem by using the Report This Post button they can do that, but I will decide whether it should be made public. And let's not forget, just because John Q. Public sees what he perceives to be a 'short coming' or other problem with a posted advertisement doesn't mean there is a problem. John Q. Public may have a personal set of expectations which are not realistic.

From what you're saying, most people are just too stupid to be left to deal with recruiters and HR people. I don't think that's true or an issue in all of this.

In the thread in the Moderator's forum I asked "Where else can you (or anyone) find a place where a job offer is discussed publicly and the result was no place. At least no one pointed out to me a place where these discussions occur in public. If I go to the ASQ or to Monster I don't see these discussions. Its very simple. Here's an advertisement for a job opening. If interested, contact the person who posted the opening and find out further details.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

Speaking as someone who has gotten in trouble in the past by questioning a posted job solicitation (in a forum where it's expected that there will be responses to posts), I think it's a good idea to moderate responses, and a better idea to prohibit responses in the forum altogether. Let the discourse proceed between the OP and interested candidates directly. This would make it essentially the same as any other medium for advertising job openings.

Speaking only for myself, I don't need the help of a moderator in reviewing job solicitations before they're posted, and the time spent in a moderation queue, and then the time spent with nitpicking the ad before it gets posted, seem wasteful, especially in a situation where time is of the essence for both parties.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

My suggestion is for folks to read through the hoops ASQ makes employers jump through before accepting and running a PAID job listing.

(http://careers.asq.org/employers/)

A look through the ASQ job listings

(http://careers.asq.org/search/results/index.cfm?ss=0&so=DESC&sb=&p=6)
will show that EVERY ad discloses the identity of the actual employer. In addition, a Profile of the company is also provided so the candidate can do a little research prior to making the decision to apply or not apply for a job.
This is not the ASQ. This forum is nothing like the ASQ, yet you just will not let go of trying to use the ASQ as a model for here. This is not a paid service. We do not have companies beating down the doors here to put in a paid job opening advertisement. We're lucky to get ads even though we're offering free space to do so. You say the ASQ requires a "Profile of the company". There aren't many companies that a person can't find out what ever they want to know about the company just by using Google to investigate the company.

Wes, you appear to have some sort of thing where you want companies or recruiters (or others) to jump through hoops, so to speak, just to post a job opening here. If it doesn't meet your criteria, you're not happy. If they won't answer your questions, you're not happy. My opinion is this will drive companies and recruiters from wanting to post job opening here at all.

I also think you're implying that companies that 'jump through the ASQ's hoops' are going to end up treating job applicants better in some way (or something like that), and I don't believe that is necessarily true. I know that the ASQ job applicant screening program doesn't work. Just last January I went through the ASQ for job applicants and got nothing but lemons. There were actually several much better qualified applicants who responded to a blind newspaper advertisement placed in the local paper. I have no reason to think the ASQ Job Advertisement screening is any more effective than their job opening screening.
Speaking as someone who has gotten in trouble in the past by questioning a posted job solicitation (in a forum where it's expected that there will be responses to posts), I think it's a good idea to moderate responses, and a better idea to prohibit responses in the forum altogether. Let the discourse proceed between the OP and interested candidates directly. This would make it essentially the same as any other medium for advertising job openings.

Speaking only for myself, I don't need the help of a moderator in reviewing job solicitations before they're posted, and the time spent in a moderation queue, and then the time spent with nitpicking the ad before it gets posted, seem wasteful, especially in a situation where time is of the essence for both parties.
I agree.
 

Al Rosen

Holed-up in a Hotel in South Florida
Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

We're not the New York Times, just the local Pennysaver.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

Job posted. Thread locked. If moderator sees something alarming, he can take it up with the OP for clarification/revision. Otherwise, here is the ad, apply if you wish directly to the OP's organization as (hopefully) spelled out in the post.
 
Last edited:

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#10
Re: REPLYING to Job Posting with Questions

Yes, it can, and in my opinion should, be that simple. I do have Replies enabled right now, but they go to a moderator queue. I'll probably see if there's a software switch to stop replies. I'll have to manually close threads, but there aren't that many postings so that shouldn't be an issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
C Refreshing an old and boring topic - Job descriptions and Roles vs Process Documentation ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 38
BeaBea Organizational Charts and Job Titles Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 9
M IATF 16949 8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups - Do we need secondary check? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Product Safety Responsibility - Job shop such as a machine shop AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 10
JAMESH Job Safety - Lockout/Tagout and Respiratory Protocols Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
S Regulatory job in pharma vs. medical device US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 16
S Regulatory job in pharma vs. medical device CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 0
Marc Job Opening - 1-4-2020 Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
M Do I Expect Too Much of Job Candidates? Career and Occupation Discussions 33
JAMESH Building a "Lean" Job Shop Training Program Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 0
I "On the job training" as a response to how someone was trained? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 75
M Nonconformity for missing form number on the job description document Nonconformance and Corrective Action 1
Sidney Vianna Are the Accreditation Bodies doing their job? Keeping CB's accountable Registrars and Notified Bodies 0
T QMS Template Help - Small machine shop/job shop Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
I ISO 9001:2015 - On the Job Training and Records Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
G Job interview - So I have to do a presentation on PPAP APQP and PPAP 16
F Job Travelers questions - unsigned operations AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 41
Marc Posting Job Openings - Read Me Please - 27 January 2019 Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
K Assigning the Correct Procedures Applicable to Job Titles General Auditing Discussions 15
W Job Card/Router sign off - Want to go paperless AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 1
S Is management representative a temporary post or a job title Management Review Meetings and related Processes 16
Q Have you ever "excluded" certain job descriptions from the QMS? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
C IATF 16949 Cl 8.5.1.3 - Verification of job set up IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
D How do you use statistics in your job Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 6
Sam Lazzara Notified Body CE Project Manager - Worst job ever? EU Medical Device Regulations 6
D Job Titles referenced in Procedures IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 18
Marc How did you "get" a full-time job? (A 2017 discussion) Career and Occupation Discussions 11
M Apply for a job when no opening is posted? Career and Occupation Discussions 64
M AS9100D excluding Design and Development - Small Job Shop AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 18
A Splitting Paper Routing Job Worksheets AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 3
N I updated my Job Description - Critiques Appreciated Career and Occupation Discussions 22
S Job travelers through a machine shop AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 5
L South of England - experienced Auditor / QMS looking for a new job Career and Occupation Discussions 1
I ISO 17025 Job Descriptions - People who have mutiple roles ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
A Best Method of Auditing an Installation Process at a client job-site ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
H Job Interview Question - Faulty machine Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
M Taking on a job outside of our ISO Scope ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
X Question about Job Documentation Requirements ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
H Job Descriptions to comply with ISO Standards ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
B Suggestions for job interview regarding CCD's (Charge Coupled Device) Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 3
O New Job 1 Month from Recertification Audit - Missing Documents, no Internal Audits ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
Z Control of Job Aid Videos Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 2
H AS9100 - Accountability for Job Travelers AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 25
R Gage Identification Methods in a Job Shop Calibration Frequency (Interval) 8
P Leadership Standards - New job as Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 9
S Calibration Engineer and Calibration Technician Job Interview Questions General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
R Should the CEO Need a Job Description? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
Wes Bucey The "Informational Interview" - a job hunt tip? Career and Occupation Discussions 2
Q Help With Airflow Control in a mid sized Job Shop in Southwest Florida Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
B How did you grow your QMS in a Job Shop? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 11
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom