Job recovery? or "statistics don't lie, people do"

D

Darkhorseman

All the best with your new job prospects up and over there in the North. I thought that you might like a prospective from down here in Oz (Australia).

From where I see it (Power generation and distribution industry and heavy machinary manufacturing) some of the macro problems are that there is a "blemange" of middle management and political spin doctors that are working hard at stopping information up and down both the political and industrial worlds. This "blemange" believe that "information is power" and they're not giving any of it away. Essential training is withheld from the workshop floor and lack of performance (often due to lack of training) is withheld from the executive managers.

This is mirrored in the political sphere where iinformation flowing to politicians is controlled by lobbyists and vested interest groups including unions, mining cartells and finance organisations. The advisers have become the controllers.

Unfortunately many of these people are sociopaths in the real sense of the word. If I can recommend to you Dr John Clarke's book "Working With Monsters" ... Dr Clarke was writing a thesis on criminal sociopaths when he recognised his partner's stories from her bank job were similar to some of the cases he had been studying. The only difference was that instead of a dead body being the end result, a dead career and loss of valuable talent was the workplace result.

All the best to you up there ... I'm going to make sure my grandchildren can read Chinese. That is the language the operating manuals will be written in 20 years from now ... if we keep going at our present speed on our present course.
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
Who to believe? :frust: :frust:

Stijloor.
It's not a matter of who to believe. It's a matter of looking at different statistics from different sources and making your determination from the information you data mine in context as a whole. Personally, I also prefer to look at the "local" statistics in context of the comparable world statistics. I'm not so much a nationalist (just as few corporations have a sense of nationalism), so I tend to take a world view as opposed to a local view.

I put in the "Employment as a % of Population" graph as a way to look at job growth in the US from another view. Job growth in the US could double, but if the % of the population with jobs continues to stay low (or continues to decline) you know there is something else of significance happening and it probably isn't good, what ever it is. Whilst it *could* be that more people are working at much higher wages and thus more families can afford to live on the income of one person as opposed to 2 (as it was in the US in the 1950's and earlier {other than during wars}, women stayed home and the men worked), I doubt this is the case here. The question is what else is happening, or better put what other *things* are happening. It is possible to have robust job growth and a lower unemployment rate cited, but since the statistics for determination of the unemployment rate are so screwy we have to go to other sources to get an idea of what the *real* unemployment rate is. "Employment as a % of Population" is one measure that helps us understand the context of statistics cited for job growth and unemployment.

I didn't read the NYT article because I get the "Paywall/Register" page so I don't know what aspects it addressed - But, I know job growth is relative just as are the government unemployment statistics. You have to dig in and find their analysis methodology, too. The CPI is a very good example of selective statistics. How it is computed has been revised quite often over the years and at this point it excludes aspects such as food and energy. While the government gives reasons for this (e.g.: the CPI is now meant to show "core" inflation) most (my opinion) people don't readily differentiate CPI from *real* inflation (inflation rate based on all aspects). Thus it becomes more of a "feel good" statistic. The reality is people *have* to buy food and energy. It is a big part of their lives unless they're in the US$100K plus faction of the population.

The bottom line is when interpreting statistics such as job growth, how much one knows about the statistic cited as well as its limitations and biases is important. For example, here is another take on the "job recovery": The Sunny, Cloudy, Warm, Freezing Jobs News.

"On the other hand, the unemployment rate is woefully high by historical standards, and 13.7 million Americans remain out of work. At the current rate of job growth, it would take more than a decade for the United States to get back to a normal rate of unemployment of about 5 percent. There are 6.6 million fewer Americans working today than there were three years ago."

A good place to play with the stats is here: Inflation, Money Supply, GDP, Unemployment and the Dollar - Alternate Data Series.

Just some of my thoughts.
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
I hope that this is considered "fair use."

From the New York Times.

Big Jump in Private Jobs Bolsters Recovery Hopes

By CATHERINE RAMPELL Published: March 4, 2011

The economic waiting game may soon be over, as businesses signal that they are finally willing to resume widespread hiring.

In all, the nation added 192,000 jobs in February, a big jump from the 63,000 added the previous month, the Labor Department reported on Friday.

The job growth was the most in nearly a year, and the 12th consecutive month of gains by companies, which added 222,000 workers last month. It followed an unusually weak report in January, when major snowstorms across the country prompted offices and factories to close.

Taken together, the first two months of the year produced growth at about the same pace as last fall.

Economists say they are hopeful the pace will soon pick up further.

“Economic recoveries can be like a snowball rolling down a hill, in that it takes time to get some momentum,” said John Ryding, chief economist at RDQ Economics. “People hesitate until they feel that the recovery’s durable enough, and then they have a tendency to jump in. Maybe we’re finally getting to that jumping-in moment.”

Threats to a more robust recovery remain, of course, including a surge in energy and food prices, with the possibility of disruptions in oil production in the Middle East continuing to weigh on the financial markets. State and local governments are also shedding jobs, which depressed the total for February, as they grapple with budget woes.

But for now, the improvement is notable. The unemployment rate ticked down to 8.9 percent last month, falling below 9 percent for the first time in nearly two years. This rate, which comes from a survey separate from the payroll numbers and is based on the total number of Americans who want to work, has remained stubbornly high the last year. Altogether, 13.7 million people are still out of work and actively looking.

Economists say the unemployment rate could rise temporarily in the next few months, as stronger job growth lures some discouraged workers to look for jobs again. Right now, just 64.2 percent of adults are actively involved in the work force, meaning they are either in a job or actively looking for one. That is the lowest participation rate in 25 years, an indication that many Americans are either staying home, going back to school, raising children or otherwise waiting for better conditions before applying for work.

“It’s a puzzle, a genuine puzzle why that number has been stuck,” a senior economist at Credit Suisse, Jay Feldman, said. “I expect it to recover somewhat in the coming months as the labor market improves and more people become encouraged about their job prospects.”

Other recent economic reports — like those on unemployment claims and manufacturing — have pointed to stronger demand for workers. The Federal Reserve, in a survey of its 12 districts, noted on Wednesday that the labor market had improved modestly, but the Fed chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, told lawmakers that “until we see a sustained period of stronger job creation, we cannot consider the recovery to be truly established.”

The unemployment rate has fallen from a peak of 10.1 percent in this downturn. A broad measure of unemployment, which includes people working part time because they cannot find full-time jobs and those so discouraged that they have given up searching, dipped to 15.9 percent in February, from 16.1 percent in January.

Job gains appeared in nearly every industry last month. Among the biggest winners were the manufacturing, construction, and professional and business services industries. Construction payrolls bounced back from a very low level in January, when severe snowstorms hindered activity.

“In some cases it’s very hard to judge how big the underlying improvement there is in this data,” said Nigel Gault, chief United States economist at IHS Global Insight.

State and local governments, squeezed by revenue shortfalls and a reluctance to raise taxes, again laid off workers. Local governments have eliminated 377,000 jobs since September 2008, when their employment last peaked.

“There’s no work out here,” said Julio Santiago, 33, a mechanic who repaired police cars and sanitation trucks for the city of Newark before he was let go last November.

He and his wife, who has been job-hunting for two years, have canceled their children’s summer camp plans, cut out cable and Internet, borrowed from friends and even given away the family dog to make ends meet.

“The only work they have is only temporary work, or one or two days a week, and I can’t afford to do that,” Mr. Santiago said. “Plus they told me they may cut my unemployment benefits if I take those jobs, even if they know I’m only getting to work a few hours a week.”

Federal payrolls were unchanged in February, but federal employees may also be at risk of significant layoffs if Republican leaders in Congress are successful with their proposed budget cuts. Economists at Goldman Sachs and elsewhere have warned that such budget cuts could ripple through the economy and lead to layoffs in the private sector. “I am optimistic we can get to a bipartisan budget agreement, whereby the government is on a path to staying within its means without derailing the recovery and slowing the job creation engine,” said Austan Goolsbee, chairman of President Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers. “What we cut, and how, matters.”

Rising prices for energy and food also remain a risk to job growth, economists say, as they leave less money for consumers and businesses to spend on other purchases that could potentially spur hiring.

The contract for future delivery of light sweet crude oil rose to $104.42 a barrel on Friday, an increase of nearly $7 for the week, depressing the major stock indexes, which were down less than 1 percent on the day.

Many economists forecast that job growth will pick up later this year to a rate of more than 200,000 a month. While that would be a welcome development compared with the modest growth in January and the bloodletting during the recession, it still is not fast enough to recover much of the ground lost.

Since the downturn began in December 2007, the economy has shed 7.5 million jobs, or about 5.4 percent of its nonfarm payrolls. If the country adds 200,000 jobs every month, it would take more than three years to return to the employment level before the recession. And that does not take into account the fact that the working-age population has continued to grow — meaning that if the economy were healthy, it would have more jobs today than before the recession.

While gains by industry have been relatively widespread, the benefits to workers themselves have not been as universal. Workers who have already been unemployed for months or even years, for example, have had trouble getting employers to consider them. As a result, even though those out of work a few weeks have gotten new jobs, the average duration of unemployment has climbed to the unusually high level of 37.1 weeks. Many of these long-term unemployed are older workers who are considering giving up and could permanently leave the job market.

Men and women have also been affected differently by the recovery.

While men bore the brunt of job losses in the recession, requiring more women to serve as their family breadwinners, that has since changed. In the last year the share of men with jobs has risen and the share of women with jobs has fallen. In fact, the portion of women working declined to 53.2 percent in February, the lowest share since 1988.

A version of this article appeared in print on March 5, 2011, on page A1 of the New York edition.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Here is the indicator to watch:

Job recovery? or "statistics don't lie, people do"

Employment as a % of Population​

Who to believe? :frust: :frust:

Stijloor.

<SNIP>
I thought that you might like a prospective from down here in Oz (Australia).

<SNIP>
This "blemange" believe that "information is power" and they're not giving any of it away. Essential training is withheld from the workshop floor and lack of performance (often due to lack of training) is withheld from the executive managers.

This is mirrored in the political sphere where iinformation flowing to politicians is controlled by lobbyists and vested interest groups including unions, mining cartells and finance organisations. The advisers have become the controllers.

Unfortunately many of these people are sociopaths in the real sense of the word. If I can recommend to you Dr John Clarke's book "Working With Monsters" ... Dr Clarke was writing a thesis on criminal sociopaths when he recognised his partner's stories from her bank job were similar to some of the cases he had been studying. The only difference was that instead of a dead body being the end result, a dead career and loss of valuable talent was the workplace result.

All the best to you up there ... I'm going to make sure my grandchildren can read Chinese. That is the language the operating manuals will be written in 20 years from now ... if we keep going at our present speed on our present course.

It's not a matter of who to believe. It's a matter of looking at different statistics from different sources and making your determination from the information you data mine in context as a whole. Personally, I also prefer to look at the "local" statistics in context of the comparable world statistics. I'm not so much a nationalist (just as few corporations have a sense of nationalism), so I tend to take a world view as opposed to a local view.

I put in the "Employment as a % of Population" graph as a way to look at job growth in the US from another view. Job growth in the US could double, but if the % of the population with jobs continues to stay low (or continues to decline) you know there is something else of significance happening and it probably isn't good, what ever it is. Whilst it *could* be that more people are working at much higher wages and thus more families can afford to live on the income of one person as opposed to 2 (as it was in the US in the 1950's and earlier {other than during wars}, women stayed home and the men worked), I doubt this is the case here. The question is what else is happening, or better put what other *things* are happening. It is possible to have robust job growth and a lower unemployment rate cited, but since the statistics for determination of the unemployment rate are so screwy we have to go to other sources to get an idea of what the *real* unemployment rate is. "Employment as a % of Population" is one measure that helps us understand the context of statistics cited for job growth and unemployment.

I didn't read the NYT article because I get the "Paywall/Register" page so I don't know what aspects it addressed - But, I know job growth is relative just as are the government unemployment statistics. You have to dig in and find their analysis methodology, too. The CPI is a very good example of selective statistics. How it is computed has been revised quite often over the years and at this point it excludes aspects such as food and energy. While the government gives reasons for this (e.g.: the CPI is now meant to show "core" inflation) most (my opinion) people don't readily differentiate CPI from *real* inflation (inflation rate based on all aspects). Thus it becomes more of a "feel good" statistic. The reality is people *have* to buy food and energy. It is a big part of their lives unless they're in the US$100K plus faction of the population.

The bottom line is when interpreting statistics such as job growth, how much one knows about the statistic cited as well as its limitations and biases is important. For example, here is another take on the "job recovery": The Sunny, Cloudy, Warm, Freezing Jobs News.

"On the other hand, the unemployment rate is woefully high by historical standards, and 13.7 million Americans remain out of work. At the current rate of job growth, it would take more than a decade for the United States to get back to a normal rate of unemployment of about 5 percent. There are 6.6 million fewer Americans working today than there were three years ago."

A good place to play with the stats is here: Inflation, Money Supply, GDP, Unemployment and the Dollar - Alternate Data Series.

Just some of my thoughts.
I agree this is an interesting, even shocking depiction of the job picture. Even more shocking is that it doesn't address what happens to the folks who no longer qualify as "employed" (simply because they are not on a regular payroll.) Perhaps a spouse is working jointly with the other spouse and running a home-based business.

My contention is many of these folks are either working contract or temp jobs and so fall off the grid. I do not believe any significant portion have bettered their income status. Somebody must be making money or inflation couldn't survive. Folks without money can NOT buy goods and services. That should leave a surplus of goods and services unpurchased. The economic law of supply and demand dictates that a surplus of goods and services causes prices to fall, not rise. What I have no clue about is how badly their annual takehome income may have suffered as a result. From the number of sale and rental housing units on the market, there must be a significant amount of consolidating of living units (adult children move back home, second homes in vacation areas are lost to foreclosure, people take in non-related boarders, etc.)

Inflation is a fact, the question is WHY? Is it merely market manipulation by a few insiders? If so, how can they create the impression of shortages in goods and services required for inflation to sustain itself? (Some believe that FEAR [Hello, Dr. Deming!] of a yet unrealized shortage causes inflation - witness the rise in oil and some other commodities just on the threat of a real shortage from conflicts in the Middle East.) Is that the only answer? Monopolies corner markets and create artificial shortages by withholding goods and services from the market (OPEC, for one.) The only certain shortage is FOOD, not primarily because of the rising population (we took the teeth out of Malthusian Theory long ago), but because of disarray in the distribution system of food from places of surplus to places of shortage. Much of that disarray is due to the uneven distribution of cash to buy food. Part of the disarray is because some food is PROCESSED to create higher selling value at the loss of nutritional value [Hello, high fructose corn syrup and Mickey D! and Mr. Starbucks!]

The underlying question, highlighted in the thread title and elaborated upon by Marc, is "What is the real truth behind the fog of statistics?" Many of our Cove members are superb statisticians, but they will confirm the value of the statistics is determined by the validity of the underlying data being crunched. Sure, one statistic Marc posits is given above, but we can't tell from that statistic alone whether those not working are homeless and starving or whether they have consolidated into one housing unit with a well-paid worker who is able to easily sustain non working spouse and nonworking adult children because the group no longer needs to expend funds for multiple housing units and commuting expenses and other allied costs of working outside the home.

I agree - the available statistics seem to be created by folks deliberately trying to hide the underlying truth, hence the subtitle "statistics don't lie, people do."

 
Last edited:

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
I hope that this is considered "fair use."

From the New York Times. <snip>
A snapshot of sorts. Notable is the lack of any indication of wages and benefits of the new jobs. Are they as "high" as they were in the past, or are more jobs available but with a lower wage *package*? If more jobs are added, but their average wage package is lower, is the economy really recovering? That's not to mention that employers continue to demand more for less both in time and compensation. How many people out there have jobs (e.g.: were not laid off) because they accepted a reduced employee compensation package? I know people who haven't lost their job but their compensation package goes down every year in one way or another be it salary, a reduced (or eliminated) health care plan, etc. But - I've watched that happening for over 20 years. It's just happening faster these days.

As a thought, technically a country can have 100% employment, but if the majority (say 95%) of the people are making just enough to be able to survive (housing, food and energy) they won't be buying many other consumer goods.

Heck - I don't know what will happen. I know what I *think* is happening.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
All the best with your new job prospects up and over there in the North. I thought that you might like a prospective from down here in Oz (Australia).

From where I see it (Power generation and distribution industry and heavy machinary manufacturing) some of the macro problems are that there is a "blemange" of middle management and political spin doctors that are working hard at stopping information up and down both the political and industrial worlds. This "blemange" believe that "information is power" and they're not giving any of it away. Essential training is withheld from the workshop floor and lack of performance (often due to lack of training) is withheld from the executive managers.

This is mirrored in the political sphere where iinformation flowing to politicians is controlled by lobbyists and vested interest groups including unions, mining cartells and finance organisations. The advisers have become the controllers.

Unfortunately many of these people are sociopaths in the real sense of the word. If I can recommend to you Dr John Clarke's book "Working With Monsters" ... Dr Clarke was writing a thesis on criminal sociopaths when he recognised his partner's stories from her bank job were similar to some of the cases he had been studying. The only difference was that instead of a dead body being the end result, a dead career and loss of valuable talent was the workplace result.

All the best to you up there ... I'm going to make sure my grandchildren can read Chinese. That is the language the operating manuals will be written in 20 years from now ... if we keep going at our present speed on our present course.
Welcome to the Cove, Darkhorseman! :bigwave:

That is certainly an upsetting scenario to consider. :nope: I wonder how different that is from one culture to the next - I suspect not much among workplaces that are competitive in nature, the emerging China among them. I think in the end we just ought to do the best we can. We can't always change our climate, just how we protect ourselves from its extremes.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
I suggest you jump at the TS auditor opportunity. If a registrar is asking you, they have to "recommend" you which is hard to get a registrar to do.

As Howard - He knows the process.

Downside: Travel
Thank you - it felt good to be asked.

But I don't understand the bit about 'they have to "recommend" you.'
 
K

Ka Pilo

If yes, how do we organize into a voting bloc that can elect representatives to actually enact the changes that will be beneficial to the grass roots people instead of the "elite 10%?"
I thought US has only 2 political parties namely Democratic and Republican. Why it seems that there is a huge fraction of the voting public?
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
I thought US has only 2 political parties namely Democratic and Republican. Why it seems that there is a huge fraction of the voting public?
the correct terminology is:
The USA has two major political parties and a number of minor ones.

The reality is that groups of people (regardless of whether they belong to the same political party) may decide they have a common agenda and work to create popular support for that narrow agenda to influence elected politicians and those hoping to get elected that the best chance to stay in office or to get elected is to fall in line with the agenda of a powerful bloc of voters who may tip the scales in a close election.

These groups contribute money to hire lobbyists to remind those politicians that they need to consider the agenda of the group the lobbyist works for.

Some powerful groups whose members span a number of major and minor political parties include the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the Association of American Retired Persons (AARP) and they have been successful in getting legislation passed which follows their agendas.
 
K

Ka Pilo

the correct terminology is:
The USA has two major political parties and a number of minor ones.
I see. Thank your for correcting.
The reality is that groups of people (regardless of whether they belong to the same political party) may decide they have a common agenda and work to create popular support for that narrow agenda to influence elected politicians and those hoping to get elected that the best chance to stay in office or to get elected is to fall in line with the agenda of a powerful bloc of voters who may tip the scales in a close election.

These groups contribute money to hire lobbyists to remind those politicians that they need to consider the agenda of the group the lobbyist works for.

Some powerful groups whose members span a number of major and minor political parties include the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the Association of American Retired Persons (AARP) and they have been successful in getting legislation passed which follows their agendas.
If that is the case, they (people of US) probably can't. Otherwise, people (voters) do the checking and not be frightened by these powerful groups that hires lobbyists (short term job) to gain support of the majority to further their personal agendas that will result in economic fall (long term suffering).
 
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