Search the Elsmar Cove!
**Search ALL of Elsmar.com** with DuckDuckGo including content not in the forum - Search results with No ads.

Juran vs. Deming - Your Thoughts?

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Trusted
#21
Greg B said:
Duran vs Deming

Personally , I think Duran would take him in the fifth ... :biglaugh:

Sorry, I had to...It was the first thought that came into my head...Don King promotes Duran vs Deming in the World Title

Greg B
No mas, no mas! :bonk:
 

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Trusted
#22
Wes Bucey said:
Why do you suppose a modern USA business executive says to himself,
"My costs are too high. It must be my labor costs. I can lower my costs by finding someone who can do the same thing, only cheaper."

What is there about the "siren songs" which make them so much more attractive than
I think it is basic greed - the same greed that
  • makes folks listen to and implement Ponzi schemes,
  • convinces folks to make money on the backs of unfortunates who lose their homes in foreclosure (I saw one in my mailbox today - "buy homes for 30% to 50% below market value BEFORE the foreclosure. We tell you how to identify the people in money trouble!")
  • deludes people into spending 10 or 20% of their pay on lottery tickets instead of a sound investment program
I've seen the word "greed" used here in the Cove by several writers, recently as well as in the past. Exactly what is "greed"?

Am I greedy if I shop at Wal-Mart to get the best price on some auto parts or groceries instead of shopping at the local Mom and Pop shop?

Am I greedy if I buy a Kia car instead of a Chevy?


Am I greedy if I automate some of my processes and in doing so have 5 fewer jobs for people in my company?

If I want a raise, even though I already make good money, am I greedy? Does this change if I want the extra money to buy a bigger boat and not to contribute to the less fortunate?

Who exactly is "deluded" into buying lotto tickets, and by whom? Does the buyer not bear any responsibility to investigate the chances of winning/losing?

My point is not to pick on Wes, but to make people think before using such powerful words as "greed", because, like beauty, it often may be in the eye of the beholder.
 
D

David Hartman

#23
Mike S. said:
I've seen the word "greed" used here in the Cove by several writers, recently as well as in the past. Exactly what is "greed"?
According to the American Heritage Dictionary, "An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth: “Many... attach to competition the stigma of selfish greed” (Henry Fawcett)."

With exception of the "I want a raise" example (based on "I want" -Vs- "I need"), I'm not sure that any of your examples would fall into this definition.

Some examples that might define this in business can be seen in the "10 Worst Companies in 2003" thread under "Miscellaneous Topics". Some other examples could be the organization that lets lower-level hourly employees go because of a slowdown in sales, but then lobbies for a raise for senior executives. Or, an organization with a 5 (or more) layer deep upper management structure, that initiates a reduction in force at the production worker level, prior to expending any time reviewing the system for waste.

I do believe a factor that often gets overlooked is that of pride: "I (and I alone), as the CEO, am responsible for the success or failure of my business." Or the "if it wasn't made here, it's can't be good" philosophy.
:mad:
 
R

Rob Nix

#24
I would further add to ddhartma's comment the following definition:

"Greed has been defined as excessive desire, or avarice, a rapacious desire for more than one needs or deserves. It can take different forms, including: love of money, desire for power or fame, voraciousness for food, drink, sex, and material possessions."

When desire goes to the point of potentially harming yourself (e.g. gambling addiction) or others (e.g. unethical corporate behavior), then it becomes greed.
 
#25
Dave and Rob have good answers, but Mike's comment deserves a little closer examination.

For the sake of example of a company that will not be too much affected by what I write, let's examine if a greed factor exists with Walmart or the folks who purchase there.

Folks in small towns bemoan the fact that when Walmart builds a big box halfway between two towns, small businesses in each town suffer from the stress on low prices, large variety of goods, and expanded hours of business.

The difference in regard to greed is that the profits from all those sales are siphoned out of the community, never to return.

When a shopper selects Walmart instead of the local stores, does he understand that economic fact and that he is contributing to a cash drain from his community?

Does he understand that instead of having ten or twenty businessmen in each town capable of contributing their time, talent, and money to the local community (ranging from sponsoring little league teams to offering store windows to display high school sports stuff to working diligently in local churches and service clubs), he may have only one or two Walmart managers with sufficient income (but probably not the time) to perform those community services?

Does he understand that many of the goods offered in a Walmart are purchased from manufacturers whose production is outsourced to locations where employees do not receive benefits beyond a wage scaled to the low cost of living in that location (at the cost of jobs in his own town, maybe even his own job)?

Whether we regard it as a political issue or a social issue or an economic issue or strictly a Quality issue, events thoughout the world are brewing to a boil-over point.

Couple that with environmental trends which have scary implications (a report today said the Pacific ocean is heating to a point where it will kill all the living coral in Australia's Great Barrier Reef within 50 years), and we see that doing nothing is the same as actively working against our community and our planet.
 

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Trusted
#26
I think this might be getting too political now, but I will say this:

In 1975 climate "experts" (reported in Newsweek and elsewhere) said we were facing a global cooling catastrophe.

I assume you never shop at Wal-Mart?

Must everything about them be negative? What about the jobs created, and the money saved by the consumers?

What would you propose we do -- outlaw Wal-Mart, force them to buy from only certain suppliers, or ask consumers to mass-boycott them, or what?
 
#27
Mike S. said:
I think this might be getting too political now, but I will say this:

In 1975 climate "experts" (reported in Newsweek and elsewhere) said we were facing a global cooling catastrophe.
A lot more data available now than 29 years ago.

Mike S. said:
I assume you never shop at Wal-Mart?
Accurate assumption. Or Sam's Club, either. I'm not a hypocrite.

Mike S. said:
Must everything about them be negative? What about the jobs created, and the money saved by the consumers?
Net jobs? Net salaries? I suppose all the folks who lost their jobs at the businesses in the towns got hired at Walmart? What about the store owners? If you don't have a job, saving money when you don't have any to spend in the first place is sort of a moot point.

Mike S. said:
What would you propose we do -- outlaw Wal-Mart, force them to buy from only certain suppliers, or ask consumers to mass-boycott them, or what?
I only ask that each person thinks through the consequences of his actions. In the same way we advocate performing a FMEA before beginning production, so ought we to advocate a FMEA before beginning production on our lives.

As I wrote somewhere, it is a truism we will probably always have poor people, thieves, selfish people and altruistic people. I can only be responsible for my own actions, but that doesn't mean I can't try to persuade (not force) others to join me. At my age, I'm closer to the end of my life than the beginning, but it doesn't mean I don't care about those who will come after me.

As for politics - we are talking ideas, not partisan politics. Check all of my posts. You will never find mention of a party or a candidate.

When polio vaccines became available, would you have labeled it political to advocate adminstering it to children who might otherwise suffer an agonizing disease? Several of my playmates caught polio. They ended their lives living in iron lungs. As a matter of fact, I can't even remember which party was in power when we did that.

If tomorrow, we discover Toyota is granting free license to produce its hybrid engines to all carmakers which could result in a 30 to 40% reduction in the use of petroleum world-wide, as well as a corresponding decrease in the price of such engines, would you consider it a conspiracy against the petroleum industry and indirectly, against the USA?
 
D

David Hartman

#28
Steering us back to the subject of greed as a motivator:

Wes, Are you suggesting that it was Sam Walton's greed that drove him to develop Wal-Mart? I for one believe that it was merely one man's search for "a better mouse trap". So many people put down the so called "big box stores" but aren't they really just capitalism (a free economy) at work (i.e. One person's search for a product that people want, and yes perhaps what drives that search is the desire to make money, but is that wrong?

If the desire to make money is an evil thing, then why do any of us entertain thoughts of working, starting our own business, authoring a book, painting a picture, et cetera? Are all of these desires based on greed?

Additionally, no one has mentioned the hundreds of thousands of dollars that Wal-Mart donates to local communities to such things as literacy groups, churchs, and even a lawn mower for my son's mowing service when he was 10 years old.

I know that in Marion, Indiana we currently have a Lowe's, a Home Depot, and yet we have a few local lumber yards that have not lost business because they have specialty items and services that the big box stores don't provide. The free enterprise system works, if we allow it (and I don't believe that it's all fueled by greed).
;)
 

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Trusted
#29
ddhartma said:
Steering us back to the subject of greed as a motivator:

The free enterprise system works, if we allow it (and I don't believe that it's all fueled by greed).
;)
DD,

I can't give you more karma yet, but I can (and will) say "bravo" to your entire post. :agree1: :applause:
 

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Trusted
#30
Wes Bucey said:
As I wrote somewhere, it is a truism we will probably always have poor people, thieves, selfish people and altruistic people.
Why do we come to the Cove? Why do we learn the teachings of Deming, Juran, and others of their kind? Why did Deming and Juran teach what they did? Is it all simply so we can become "better people", or is it also so we can learn to improve ourselves and our companies financially?

If Toyota follows the teachings of some quality guru(s) and comes up with and patents a substantially better, cleaner, more fuel efficient engine than any currently available and because of this they capture 20% more of the auto market, is Toyota greedy and selfish? Should we punish Toyota, or boycott them?
 
Top Bottom