Keeping an External Auditor on because he's "useless"...

[BradM]

Phil, you speak wisdom from a young body.

You ask about keeping an auditor around because they are useless. I ask you "Why are you keeping a job with an organization that is useless?"

Now.. don't get me wrong. I know there are bills to pay and all. But I firmly believe that passion and joy far exceed the value of the paycheck. So many people... making so much money... miserable. They hate their jobs.

There are organizations out there that care about quality. And... if you spend much time here... there are auditors that care about the process and effective quality systems. They believe in that.

Sometimes the world around you is in motion, and there is little that you can do. However... there is your world within that world, and you can affect the world in which you are in. Good organizations appreciate change agents; appreciate those that ask "what if".

My Iphone is one of the neatest things I've bought in a long time. I can guarantee you they could care a less about a certificate on the wall. I bet they demand their employees to challenge and ask "what if..". Remember... all those functions and features have constraints-space, costs, power usage, etc.; it's not just a think-tank, they have to make it work. But the culture of the organization is what makes the difference, and encourages the innovation.

"Choose today who you will serve... as for me and my household.... " There are organizations that do strive for quality; and there are organizations what want a piece of paper. You are at a great point in your career to make decisions about moving forward, and which organization you choose to make your mark.

Thank you for the thread. You have taught someone older than you many things, whether you know it or not. I hope, I (and my other friends) have given back to you.

 

[Icy Mountain]

True. That is primarily because organizations have management but no REAL leadership. Real leadership is rarer than red kryptonite, I guess. Very metaphoric. But one must be very careful. Living in So Cal, we have serious problems with wild fires. There are numerous cases of "control fires" getting out of control and destroying life, property and the environment. Don't play with fire is always a wise advice. Especially, if the landscape is dry....

Red kryptonite, you crack me up. Of course, one can always cut firebreaks with a chainsaw, specially equipped with a custom spark arrestor. That said, the job of firestarter is not without risks. Of course, if one doesn't want to take risks one could always just be a passenger.

Phil, you speak wisdom from a young body.
"Choose today who you will serve... as for me and my household.... " There are organizations that do strive for quality; and there are organizations what want a piece of paper. You are at a great point in your career to make decisions about moving forward, and which organization you choose to make your mark.

Thank you for the thread. You have taught someone older than you many things, whether you know it or not. I hope, I (and my other friends) have given back to you.

I agree, well said. But don't be so shy:
Joshua 24:15
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Some wisdom will never disappear.

 

[eternal_atlas]

Hello,

I have an issue I would like some advice on please...

To set the context... I am reasonably new to both the industry and the company (I started a role as a HSQE officer in March - my primary work involves a large business process mapping project encompassing the whole organisation). The company is market leading manufacturer and supplier - German Owner, and I'm at UK head office.

The company has ISO:9001 accreditation for a small part of the business only (most customers don't realise this and that suits the business!) and recently had its six-monthly visit from BSI.

We passed with no non- conformaties... as we always seem to. The assessment report written by the auditor is essentially a complete re-hash of the previous audit (Many of the dates haven't even been changed) and where it actually makes sense is just a dictation of the drivel fed to him by one of our managers. Some of the lies told to this auditor are beyond belief. Our Quality System is an outdated and unrefered to group of documents which the HSQE manager boots up twice a year to make the odd change prior to audit.

One of the directors has the idea of introducing TQM into the organisation and expanding the ISO accreditation to cover the whole business - the problem is I don't believe he (or anyone else) realises what a massive cultural change would be required to achieve this.

At the following Quality Management Review meeting - always held after audits - (not attendend by any directors for the second time running) the HSQE manager and various supply chain managers spent the majority of the time laughing about how they have got through yet another audit.

There are very fundamental things which do not happen in the company. Complaints arn't really recorded at all for instance - and they're not reviewed at all. The company has high staff turnover and directors who are very detatched from the rest of the company. Middle management contains a lot of passengers - an awkward mix of people who've lost the will to leave and those who have only recently started.

It was raised that my boss (The HSQE Manager) would be requesting the same auditor for the next three years (six audits). On the day of the assessment the auditor already said from his perspective he would be happy to continue with us.

I asked the question of whether it was a good idea to keep this auditor - who is by everyones admission a farce - on for another term. And he replied - "If we changed auditor we would lose our accreditation so no we will not be changing auditor"

Now I agree with the reasoning behind the statement (given a proper audit we'd be shown up) but still think moving forward we need a change. At the moment its "we're bad so we need an incompetent auditor". Nothing will change as long as we keep passing audits in my opinion...

Any thoughts?!

How long should an auditor be kept on for?

Has anyone been in this situation?

Thanks,

Phil

Mr. Phil,

I totally agree with one point that some of the certification body auditors are not competant. And the management also decide to continue with them due to the less risk in the audit and also sometimes relationship and compfortability between the management and certifying body.

In our company, all our internal auditors are 100 times competant than any certification body.

We used to have internal auditors forum within our company.. i m the chairperson.. we used to brainstorm and came out with good management practices as a result of internal audits and presented in the management meeting..

My opinion is.. Let us not depend upon the certification agency or external auditors to enhance the effectiveness of the QMS.

Estabish a core competant internal auditors team...

 

[Wes Bucey]

Mr. Phil,

I totally agree with one point that some of the certification body auditors are not competant. And the management also decide to continue with them due to the less risk in the audit and also sometimes relationship and compfortability between the management and certifying body.

In our company, all our internal auditors are 100 times competant than any certification body.

We used to have internal auditors forum within our company.. i m the chairperson.. we used to brainstorm and came out with good management practices as a result of internal audits and presented in the management meeting..

My opinion is.. Let us not depend upon the certification agency or external auditors to enhance the effectiveness of the QMS.

Estabish a core competant internal auditors team...

An interesting solution! Of course, it depends on changing the entire culture of the organization, especially at the top. The top management officers have to be on board with this because they set aside the time for the forum and fund the cost of employee time away from production. Alas, many, if not most, top managements are too short-sighted to see the value in this or even give any lower-level employee the opportunity to voice an opinion about such a course of action.

One of the basic functions of a quality professional is to teach others in an organization about the techniques and tools of quality and the value they bring to the organization. The basic problem most quality professionals face is a set of top managers who won't let them perform those functions!

Any idea how to REALLY get through to such top managers without being slain [fired or demoted] as the messenger who brings such news?

Added in edit:
I'm struck by the paragraph "We used to have internal auditors forum within our company.. i m the chairperson.. we used to brainstorm and came out with good management practices as a result of internal audits and presented in the management meeting.."
Does the use of past tense mean the organization no longer does this? Why? [or is it just a slip in English usage?]

 

[Bifften]

Any idea how to REALLY get through to such top managers without being slain [fired or demoted] as the messenger who brings such news?

Very good question... does anyone have a possible answer?!

 

[Stijloor]

Very good question... does anyone have a possible answer?!

Offer suggestions without mentioning bad behavior by management. Those suggestions should include benefits to the organizations and its customers expressed in cold hard ca$$$$$h. (Pound Sterling in your case.)

Money talks.

Stijloor.

 

[BradM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Bucey

Any idea how to REALLY get through to such top managers without being slain [fired or demoted] as the messenger who brings such news?

Very good question... does anyone have a possible answer?!

Yes, get another job. I kind of believe in the Character of the Man, thing. Until recently (thanks to Steve Prevette and some others) I knew about Deming and his teachings, but I wouldn't consider myself a pro on it. My boss (the best I have had) manages by Deming principles. He doesn't "say" Deming; he does Deming. A person has to have the management character to carry issues to them, and reasonably expect them to listen.

I do think a worker has the right to go to their boss once and tell them how they feel (in a confidential, professional manner). The worker has to move on after that, and the boss should give their opinion the respect that it is due.

Granted I am obviously passionate about quality. But I cannot imagine any positive things coming from working for a company who gratefully pays for a pencil-whipped certificate, and the individual being passionate about quality. The management has other strategies and other goals, and it will be difficult to get them to change.

 

[Caster]

Offer suggestions without mentioning bad behavior by management. Those suggestions should include benefits to the organizations and its customers expressed in cold hard ca$$$$$h. (Pound Sterling in your case.) Money talks. Stijloor.

Ah yes, try the cost of poor quality. IMHO if the bosses can't see a lite weight audit as a concern they won't see money as an issue.

At least any money that is not part of their entitlements (multi million dollar salaries, performance bonuses for gutting the company, golden parachutes when it fails, corporate jets to carry them and our money to their luxury home(s)).

Money is the motivator, but sometimes leaders see it as "money for me" and not money for the good of the company.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

but sometimes leaders see it as "money for me" and not money for the good of the company.

True Leaders don't do that. Managers do.

 

[AndyN]

Having read through this thread, I'm thinking it's a marriage made in ISO h*ll. The organization (despite Biff's efforts) has got the auditor they deserve.......I'm not sure there's a way out for anyone...........unless something radical happens, like a new member of management comes in and can show them their folly!