Laboratories Claiming ISO 17025 Compliance - Sick of it.....

T

TGroulx

#1
I am sick and tired of labs claiming ISO 17025 compliance, especially when they have crap quality systems.

The worst part is when I am not allowed to use an accredited laboratory because they cost more then the one that claims compliance and sourcing sees that as the same thing.

DO NOT PATRONIZE FACILITIES CLAIMING FALSE COMPLIANCES!!!!!

Those of you from the military will remember the golden cannonball movie, well damn it lets keep one cannonball because I am sick of dealing with vendors that don't do their job properly and then complian when I put tighter restrictions on their contracts so I have some since of accountability.

I actually had a vendor ask me why actual values were needed on a frequency generator. He said that as long as the lowest and the highest were ok the rest would be good.

What kind of bullshit are cal houses feeding people these days just to make a $


You realize this equipment is being used in our airplanes, in our medical devices, our defense systems, and many other critical aspects of society. Your sole purpose for being is to standardize and ensure society does not go to ****.

So please do what you say you are doing.

Rant over
 
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Wesley Richardson

Wes R
Trusted Information Resource
#2
Hi,

It seems that there are at least five categories of testing and calibration laboratories with respect to ISO/IEC 17025 Accreditation:

1. Those that are not Accredited, and do not claim to be, whose quality systems are unknown.

2. Those that are not Accredited, but have good, consistent results, follow the procedures, and have traceability to national standards.

3. Those that claim compliance with 17025, and may or may not be compliant.

4. Those that are Accredited, but still provide inconsistent or questionable results.

5. Those that are Accredited, and have good, consistent results, follow the procedures, and have traceability to national standards.

This is not unlike the same issue with ISO 9001.

As a customer of calibration and/or testing services, start with those that are Accredited to ISO/IEC 17025. Verify that their Accreditation is current, and the Scope of Accreditation includes your devices and ranges. This can be done through the Accreditation agency's web site, or by contacting them. Review the testing and calibration reports you receive from the lab. Do the numbers vary slightly for one device or item, from one report to the next, or does it appear that they are "rubber stamped?"

If you receive an out of tolerance or out of specification, try sending the item to two other Accredited labs, and compare results. When there are unexpected results, contact the quality manager and ask for a copy of the original test data. This is often more inclusive than the data that appears on the final report.

Stay in contact with the lab, so if there are significant personnel changes, such as ownership, quality manager, or in upper management, that you visit the lab and do a mini supplier audit.

If all else fails, change to another Accredited lab.

In general, an Accredited lab should have a better quality system than a non-Accredited lab. However, there are some very good labs that are not Accredited, but the only way to find them is word of mouth, a history of doing business with them, and second party supplier audits.

Wes R.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#3
I am sick and tired of labs claiming ISO 17025 compliance, especially when they have crap quality systems.

The worst part is when I am not allowed to use an accredited laboratory because they cost more then the one that claims compliance and sourcing sees that as the same thing.

DO NOT PATRONIZE FACILITIES CLAIMING FALSE COMPLIANCES!!!!!

Those of you from the military will remember the golden cannonball movie, well damn it lets keep one cannonball because I am sick of dealing with vendors that don't do their job properly and then complian when I put tighter restrictions on their contracts so I have some since of accountability.

I actually had a vendor ask me why actual values were needed on a frequency generator. He said that as long as the lowest and the highest were ok the rest would be good.

What kind of bullshit are cal houses feeding people these days just to make a $


You realize this equipment is being used in our airplanes, in our medical devices, our defense systems, and many other critical aspects of society. Your sole purpose for being is to standardize and ensure society does not go to ****.

So please do what you say you are doing.

Rant over

You are absolutely correct. There is a big problem in some shyster labs. They give the good ones a bad name. Some labs are the used car dealer side of the business.
 
T

TGroulx

#4
I know most of that having been in the calibration Industry I am just annoyed with the growing trend claiming compliance that are not worth the paper they are printed on. Especially since there is not a 3rd party lab in this state that is accredited.
 
D

D.Scott

#5
I know most of that having been in the calibration Industry I am just annoyed with the growing trend claiming compliance that are not worth the paper they are printed on. Especially since there is not a 3rd party lab in this state that is accredited.
Not to be argumentative but doesn't it depend on the nature of the lab who is making the claim of compliance?

I certainly agree you should never use a non-certified external (3rd party) lab for testing or calibration.

I think, however, there is a very good argument for a company who does their own internal calibrations/verifications and process testing of their own work (ie.: measurement of a process dimension) to claim they are compliant with 17025. If the internal lab is maintained under the requirements of 17025, their "Scope" follows the requirements of the Standard, the accuracy of the results is reliable and the customer is satisfied it would seem to me to be better than having a certified lab that lacks in those areas.

I would hesitate to paint all non-certified internal labs with the same brush. Many good companies maintain excellent internal labs which are most certainly compliant with 17025.

Dave
 
#6
You are absolutely correct. There is a big problem in some shyster labs. They give the good ones a bad name. Some labs are the used car dealer side of the business.
'H' - it's not only labs - it's shyster accreditation bodies too. There's an organization who has a '5 step process' for achieving lab. accreditation, and none of the steps involves any of their assessors actually visiting the lab to see if they perform what their documentation says they do............

Of course, one of the five steps is "mail a check......."
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
I read the critique and serious concerns in this thread, but for the benefit of Covers in need of (3rd Party) laboratory services, how can one find out if the Laboratory:
1. is indeed ISO 17025 accredited?
2. is accredited by a reputable accreditation body?
3. has a good reputation?

Thank you.

Stijloor.
 
A

amanbhai

#8
I am sick and tired of labs claiming ISO 17025 compliance, especially when they have crap quality systems.

The worst part is when I am not allowed to use an accredited laboratory because they cost more then the one that claims compliance and sourcing sees that as the same thing.

DO NOT PATRONIZE FACILITIES CLAIMING FALSE COMPLIANCES!!!!!

Those of you from the military will remember the golden cannonball movie, well damn it lets keep one cannonball because I am sick of dealing with vendors that don't do their job properly and then complian when I put tighter restrictions on their contracts so I have some since of accountability.

I actually had a vendor ask me why actual values were needed on a frequency generator. He said that as long as the lowest and the highest were ok the rest would be good.

What kind of bullshit are cal houses feeding people these days just to make a $


You realize this equipment is being used in our airplanes, in our medical devices, our defense systems, and many other critical aspects of society. Your sole purpose for being is to standardize and ensure society does not go to ****.

So please do what you say you are doing.


Rant over
but these labs are claiming ISO 17025 Compliance not accreditation. Accreditation & compliance are two different things.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Here are some links.....

http://www.ilac.org/documents/partner_pressrels_ISO_17011_Dec04.pdf

http://www.iso.org/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=29332&ICS1=3&ICS2=120&ICS3=20

ISO/IEC 17011:2004 specifies general requirements for accreditation bodies assessing and accrediting conformity assessment bodies (CABs). It is also appropriate as a requirements document for the peer evaluation process for mutual recognition arrangements between accreditation bodies.

Accreditation bodies operating in accordance with ISO/IEC 17011:2004 do not have to offer accreditation to all types of CABs.

For the purposes of ISO/IEC 17011:2004, CABs are organizations providing the following conformity assessment services: testing, inspection, management system certification, personnel certification, product certification and, in the context of this document, calibration.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#10
I read the critique and serious concerns in this thread, but for the benefit of Covers in need of (3rd Party) laboratory services, how can one find out if the Laboratory:
1. is indeed ISO 17025 accredited?
2. is accredited by a reputable accreditation body?
3. has a good reputation?

Thank you.

Stijloor.
Great questions. IMO, having ISO17025 is the first line of defense, and not an absolute. There is one lab that is 17025 that I would not let certify a butter knife of mine (with any confidence); there is another lab that is not accredited to 17025 that I have full confidence and send a lot of my stuff to.

Here's my opinion:

1. Go visit them. See what kind of operation they have. Are you impressed, or do you see some things and wonder?

2. Talk to their technicians. How long have they been with the organization? Can you talk to them should you call? How often do they get training?

3. Take five instruments that you can do without. Have two of them accurate (known within calibration), have three out of tolerance. Send them to the lab for calibration and see what happens. Send to another lab and see what they find.

In the end, there is really no way to tell. But there are enough signs/indicators that you can at least gain some level of confidence in the work.
 
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