Language used for writing a Quality Manual

H

Hodgepodge

#31
Circa 2005: I once had an auditor ask me for a copy of my quality manual stating if it wasn’t in the same format as the current version of AS9100, I should also supply him with a matrix; showing line by line, the relationship of my manual and sub-tier documents to the standard. No, I didn’t do it. But then he spent an extra day in my office questioning me how I was meeting the requirements. He then issued multiple corrective actions because my system didn’t contain the exact wording (here and there) of the standard and therefore did not show compliance. Mind you, I thought we were doing a fine job.

I thought long and hard about how to argue that I was in compliance. In the end, I rewrote the entire quality manual and all required procedures to pass the audit. All said and done, the Company didn’t actually do anything different after the rewrite than it did before, but we sure had better wording.

Quality manuals are for your company. Your company has to show them to auditors too, auditors your company pays big $$ to sit in your office (possibly even for an extra day). So you might as well think about what they might want to see when you are writing your manual.

He also explained the "Pyramid" scheme (pun intended) to me saying-Policies: you must comply with-Procedures: you must do word for word-Work instructions: are for reference. If you don't follow them word for word every time, it doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. (Huh?)

I would like to get away from this word-for-word way of documenting my processes and I've read here on the cove that some people have quality manuals that are very short. I would like to figure out how long you have to sit across from an auditor if you have a small manual.

Hang on now. This isn't a rhetorical question. It seems to me a process based approach means you just have to have the processes in place. If my documents are missing what an auditor believes to be the "exact wording" it needs, that shouldn't matter as long as my measurables are showing good results. His belief of the intention of the words doesn't matter as much as the intention of my boss when he tells me what to do. I'll still work here tomorrow if I do what my boss intended regarless of what an auditor thinks.

Is that how it ought to be...or...just how I want it to be?
 
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J

JaneB

#32
Hodgepodge,
I feel for you, I really do. And when I hear or read stories like this (which unfortunately still do happen), it makes me seriously mad. :mad:

Because writing a manual with the exact wording that the auditor wants to see is not quality and is not demanded by the Standard. (I can & will speak on 9001; cannot speak authoritatively on 9100 - I'm sure others will.)

But if your auditor is demanding that anything you write that isn't in the exact wording & format that he wants must be supplemented by:
a matrix; showing line by line, the relationship of my manual and sub-tier documents to the standard.
I know (that's a dead give away) that you've unfortunately dealt with either a lazy auditor and/or an el cheapo CB that has perhaps allowed so little auditing time that he almost is forced to demand everything fit into a pre-ordained pattern. (I could use a bunch of other words too.)

I too have had a few (rare, but horrible) similar experiences with 9001 auditors - these days even rarer. It's been a truly unpleasant & gobsmacking (to me) experience, hideous for my unfortunate clients being subjected to such tripe and for me (having to watch them being put through something like that when I know, all too well, that it isn't what is suppose to be.)

Here's what I do in these circumstances (if debating their interpretations by strict reference back to the Standard/s isn't working):
  • first pursue it informally with their superior; in most cases, the problem is resolved by action at their end, and the auditor is replaced
  • if necessary, formally complain; in almost every case this results in replacement of the auditor; clients & I have also insisted on meeting the planned future auditor, scrutinised their resume closely (to ensure they have the experience we seek), etc
  • if necessary, by switching certifier to a better one, who is as taken aback as we are by that approach and not only doesn't bother sending out auditors like that, but actually provides competent, skilled auditors.

Preventive action of course is knowing the relevant Standards very well indeed, and knowing the courses of action available to you.

Yes, I can see why you would redo things at the time to pass the audit. Because at times, there are important drivers & it may even be more expedient to shut up & do, and then fix afterwards (eg, switch certifiers).
So you might as well think about what they might want to see when you are writing your manual.
The only things I think about when writing or revieweing or advising on any documents, is: does the company need this for good management control and/or is this required for compliance? (eg, with Standard, with legislation, etc). Does it work? You betcha.

But... you do still need to comply. So even with relatively minimal documentation, if you're missing mandatory things (eg, mandatory procedures, or not defining the scope and any exclusions) then you don't. And auditors can't auditor what you 'think' your boss said...
 
Q

qualitymanager

#33
<snip> In the end, I rewrote the entire quality manual and all required procedures to pass the audit. All said and done, the Company didn’t actually do anything different after the rewrite than it did before, but we sure had better wording. <snip>
Did anybody except the auditor think so?
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#34
One problem I think is that the ability to write clearly and well and succinctly is not highly valued, or the ability to make documentation 'user-friendly' and useful.

There's a tendency to think that 'anyone' can do this stuff and that anyone can write stuff. Not true.
There is also a strong tendency to write this stuff for the audit. When I see a system that is not well written, inevitably,that is the reason given. The work instructions were written for the users, and the rest for the audit.

We have to break that practice. Whatever you write, should be written for the users as your audience. It must be compliant, but keep your audience in mind.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#35
...I should also supply him with a matrix; showing line by line, the relationship of my manual and sub-tier documents to the standard. No, I didn’t do it.
My CB uses a simple matrix to correlate the subclauses to your processes, to demonstrate that your system does address everything (similar to the one in the TS Rules book). But, it is a simple affair that takes a few minutes.



But then he spent an extra day... issued multiple corrective actions because my system didn’t contain the exact wording ...of the standard and therefore did not show compliance. ... In the end, I rewrote the entire quality manual and all required procedures to pass the audit.

...So you might as well think about what they might want to see when you are writing your manual.
Exact wording is clearly not required.




He also explained the "Pyramid" scheme (pun intended) to me saying-Policies: you must comply with-Procedures: you must do word for word-Work instructions: are for reference. If you don't follow them word for word every time, it doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong. (Huh?)
That part clearly puts it over the top. You obviously have an auditor that does not know what he's talking about. Time to find a good auditor, maybe even a better CB.




I would like to get away from this word-for-word way of documenting my processes and I've read here on the cove that some people have quality manuals that are very short. I would like to figure out how long you have to sit across from an auditor if you have a small manual.


The length of the manual is not important, content is. And the content should be focused on what helps you run the company, while meeting the requirements stated in the manual. Many people who have very short manuals simply put the content is procedure documents. It is not really less pages, just moved them around.



Hang on now. This isn't a rhetorical question. It seems to me a process based approach means you just have to have the processes in place. If my documents are missing what an auditor believes to be the "exact wording" it needs, that shouldn't matter as long as my measurables are showing good results. His belief of the intention of the words doesn't matter as much as the intention of my boss when he tells me what to do. I'll still work here tomorrow if I do what my boss intended regarless of what an auditor thinks.

Is that how it ought to be...or...just how I want it to be?
This is the important part of your post. It does have to meet the standard as well, but it should not be not hard to reconcile both your boss and the standard. No good auditor looks for exact wording. As I said, it is time to find a better auditor.


 
H

Hodgepodge

#36
Did anybody except the auditor think so?
No. Some of the guys in the shop asked me what some of the words/phrases meant. I had to tell them to keep doing what they have been doing. I also need help with wording and understanding the extent of control necessary, etc. That's why I'm on the cove. Thanks Marc!
 
H

Hodgepodge

#37
Quote:
Originally posted by Helmut Jilling
This is the important part of your post. It does have to meet the standard as well, but it should not be not hard to reconcile both your boss and the standard. No good auditor looks for exact wording. As I said, it is time to find a better auditor.



I appreciate what you are saying, but wouldn't asking for a new auditor raise a red flag? Wouldn't that seem like I, or my company, is being difficult and not interested in complying with the requirements? After all, the auditor has untold hours of training. Realistically, I would have a hard time asking for another auditor.
 
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#38
I appreciate what you are saying, but wouldn't asking for a new auditor raise a red flag? Wouldn't that seem like I, or my company, is being difficult and not interested in complying with the requirements? After all, the auditor has untold hours of training. Realistically, I would have a hard time asking for another auditor.
It is not likely to raise a red flag, and if it does, then you have the wrong CB. As a CB representative, I'd encourage you to ensure that you get the most value from the service. Without customers pushing back on this type of non-value added behaviour, then we cannot (collectively) improve the certification world. We rarely see 'difficult' customers and we need 'engaged' customers who are looking for value.........

Sure, CBs and their auditors have a burden of guilt of this type of thing, but customers going along with it is clearly not right or good! What could you have done instead of wordsmithing a manual just to suit one person, who really has no 'power' - perceived or real - over the situation!
 
S

somerqc

#39
HodgePodge,

In my past, I have done exactly what AndyN and others have referred to. I have asked that I have a different auditor assigned to my account. Why? Non-value added process with current auditor.

Tips that worked for me.

1. Keep it related to exact issues - In my case, it revolved around very weak findings (re: I had one finding that said there was no objective evidence I was following a procedure - one problem - there wasn't an instance where we needed to use the procedure yet <was a 1-2X/yr procedure>)

2. Keep it business - unless he treated someone rudely do not allow what you personnally (or your boss for that matter) become part of the situatiojn.

In my case, I got a phone call from the auditor's boss within 48 hours - we discussed each point I raised. Result - new auditor.

It was a worthwhile investment of my time - it sounds like it would be for you as well.
 
J

JaneB

#40
wouldn't asking for a new auditor raise a red flag? Wouldn't that seem like I, or my company, is being difficult and not interested in complying with the requirements? After all, the auditor has untold hours of training. Realistically, I would have a hard time asking for another auditor.
Please - don't worry, don't just believe that the 'untold hours of training' the auditor has means s/he is right. They don't and in this case it's very obvious!! And no, far from seeming like you or your company are "being difficult and not interested in complying with the requirements", if you come back to them with questions about the actual value you are getting, they will recognise that. If they don't - you most definitely have the wrong CB. All the good ones I know are thrilled when they get reasonable feedback from a customer.

I second what Andy and Helmut and Somerqc have said.

Please - never be afraid to say to your CB that you would prefer a different auditor. As Andy points out, unless CBs get some kind of feedback,they never get a chance to correct anything. It can even be that the auditor IS perfectly 'competent' (not the case here though) but that you & they just don't get along very well.

First line: try for a different auditor with the same CB. But if you get no better and/or you get no interest from the CB (a 'what's wrong with you?' attitude), then I'd start looking for a new CB. They aren't all the same, and some are definitely, oh so definitely!! much better than others. When I've had clients who've taken this advice, they've been quite astonished at the difference, either between one auditor and another, or between one CB and another.

You should not have to choose between the auditor and your boss. Or between a system your people can understand and the one the auditor insists upon. It just IS. NOT. SUPPOSED. TO. BE. LIKE. THAT.

Excuse the emphasise, but I get so darned cross about stuff like this. :mad:

It's a SERVICE business - you have a right to get a good service!!!

If more organisations did push back - and you can do it politely, firmly and based on facts, it doesn't and shouldn't have to be based on personal attacks or denigration - we might all enjoy better auditors. And stop this kind of 'I am God' do what I say stuff from happening. Or at least make it damned rare.
 
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