Late Certificates? When is it worth an AB complaint?

[PatrickSebast]

Audits were completed for three standards this year with certs that all expired in late November - it is now early December and we still don't have certs.

I expressed concern about deadlines early in the process then right before expiration and was assured they would be published on time.

Day 9 we were informed our cert was finally ready but we had a past due invoice (never received and CB cannot provide proof it was sent despite me asking for a copy of the email even if just figure out why our spam filters might have caught it) I pulled every string I could and get accounting to issue an immediate payment in under 24 hours. Now we are going on Day 12 with no certificate and our sales reps response to my frustration was "We need to schedule audits earlier next time" (As if I requested special dates and didn't just accept what I was offered).

We already switched registrars last cycle as well because we had an auditor just not show up for audit and minimal attempt from the CB to make amends so I would prefer not to go through that process again, especially if poor customer service is just the new standard for CB's.

Do CB's have anyone like a Quality Manager on their staff that is expected to jump through hoops to resolve customer issues? I certainly can't keep promising delivery of parts to an automotive company for 10 days straight and never ship... Honesty I don't know that anyone can even offer a viable solution this might just be venting but if there is a well managed CB out there or if complaints to ABs can actually help (instead of build bad blood) I would like to know.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Do CB's have anyone like a Quality Manager on their staff that is expected to jump through hoops to resolve customer issues?

If a CB doesn’t have someone who is accountable to properly communicate with their clients, they are pathetic. The easiest way to have this solved is to use the following magic capitalized words in an email to their management team:

IF I DON’T HAVE THIS RESOLVED BY 5 PM ON FRIDAY, DECEMBER 5TH, I WILL NAME THE CB OUT AT THE COVE.

Magic happens.

 

[Golfman25]

Do your really need the certificate at this moment? Not uncommon for things to be held up due to payment. You got that done, now give them a chance on their side.

Why are you holding up delivery to a customer over a piece of paper (or not even, a PDF file)?

 

[PatrickSebast]

Do your really need the certificate at this moment? Not uncommon for things to be held up due to payment. You got that done, now give them a chance on their side.

Why are you holding up delivery to a customer over a piece of paper (or not even, a PDF file)?

I am not holding up delivery on anything that was just meant as an example/comparison. As a certificate holder I am expected to deliver on time and meet promises - then I need to perform root cause analysis and corrective action for messing up on these issues. In this case the same company that assesses my ability to do these things appears to be absolutely incapable of managing a complaint from their customer.

 

[ScottK]

10 days for a certificate after a re-registration is pretty much unheard of even if they expired... 10 days is even very fast for the pass/fail verification within the CB. Hell - 10 days is even very fast to get the audit report from the lead auditor after a surveillance audit.
I expect 30-60 days and I schedule the audit early enough that my current certs won't expire before that time is up.... so yeah - the standard answer for any CB will be "you should have scheduled us for earlier". That's on the organization, not the CB.
Did you offer to pay to expedite?

I did fire a CB once because they kept pushing the audits off until past the expiration and gave us a questionable "extension" for ISO 13485. But that was them - I was prepared on-time. There is probably a thread about it here from 10 or 12 years ago.

 

[PatrickSebast]

10 days for a certificate after a re-registration is pretty much unheard of even if they expired... 10 days is even very fast for the pass/fail verification within the CB. Hell - 10 days is even very fast to get the audit report from the lead auditor after a surveillance audit.
I expect 30-60 days and I schedule the audit early enough that my current certs won't expire before that time is up.... so yeah - the standard answer for any CB will be "you should have scheduled us for earlier". That's on the organization, not the CB.
Did you offer to pay to expedite?

I did fire a CB once because they kept pushing the audits off until past the expiration and gave us a questionable "extension" for ISO 13485. But that was them - I was prepared on-time. There is probably a thread about it here from 10 or 12 years ago.

Audits for different certs were conducted 60 and 30 days before expiration. Audit reports were submitted with 50 and 20 days for them to respond.

The audits were scheduled 220 days in advance and were the only times they were available - I expressed concern about getting our certs on time when they were scheduled and they said they could manage it. If they needed more time they should have said something earlier.

 

[ScottK]

Audits for different certs were conducted 60 and 30 days before expiration. Audit reports were submitted with 50 and 20 days for them to respond.

The audits were scheduled 220 days in advance and were the only times they were available - I expressed concern about getting our certs on time when they were scheduled and they said they could manage it. If they needed more time they should have said something earlier.

That's more clear - so it is on them.
If you've filed a complaint with the CB and they have failed to respond, you can escalate to their accreditation body.
That won't rush your cert, but it's a path to make your displeasure known to their "boss".

Have the made a pass/fail decision and are dragging on the certs? What I had to do in my case was get them to write a letter that I could hand to any customer that asked for it that stated that we passed our re-registration audits and the certificates are pending.

 

[Golfman25]

I am not holding up delivery on anything that was just meant as an example/comparison. As a certificate holder I am expected to deliver on time and meet promises - then I need to perform root cause analysis and corrective action for messing up on these issues. In this case the same company that assesses my ability to do these things appears to be absolutely incapable of managing a complaint from their customer.

Yeah, I hope you have better things to worry about. If they have approved you and you're just waiting on the paper, I wouldn't sweat it. Control what you can control.

 

[PatrickSebast]

That's more clear - so it is on them.
If you've filed a complaint with the CB and they have failed to respond, you can escalate to their accreditation body.
That won't rush your cert, but it's a path to make your displeasure known to their "boss".

Have the made a pass/fail decision and are dragging on the certs? What I had to do in my case was get them to write a letter that I could hand to any customer that asked for it that stated that we passed our re-registration audits and the certificates are pending.

"Pass" decision was made - so it is just dragging on the certs. A letter would be nice - they gave me a phone number my customers could call to verify the certs when I asked for some temporary solution - I wish they had suggested that. I suppose I can ask but I'm dreaming I return from my 4-day weekend to a cert in my inbox right now.

 

[ChrisM]

What are your CB's rules/guidelines on audit dates and issuing certificates? Recent example: I worked somewhere and our certificates expire at the end of July. The CB audits were usually in March, we therefore had 4 months from knowing the auditor/assessor's "recommendation" to receiving the new certs. In many cases we knew well before the current certs expired (e.g. in April) what the decision was, but the CB kept us waiting until the week before the "old" certs expire before issuing the new certs to us - dated from July, not the March date of the audit.

Don't forget that your auditor/assessor does not pass judgement, they make a recommendation that has to go before (usually) a committee at the CB which possibly sits only monthly - at the very least a check by a second employee there - before confirming the decision, then the cert has to be drawn up and then checked and signed by the CB's signatory. It all takes time and you should allow at least 2 months between your audit and the expiry of your current cert if you always want to be in possession of a valid certificate.