Layered Process Audits? Are they required by TS16949?

[dbzman]

I wanted to ask the members of the best forum on the web about this one.

We had the corporate audit team in our facility this week and they told me something that I had not heard before. They said that 8.2.2 (specifically 8.2.2.1, 8.2.2.2, 8.2.2.3,) is calling for layered audits.

Is this true?

Opinions?

 

[jmp4429]

I wanted to ask the members of the best forum on the web about this one.

Suckup!

We had the corporate audit team in our facility this week and they told me something that I had not heard before. They said that 8.2.2 (specifically 8.2.2.1, 8.2.2.2, 8.2.2.3,) is calling for layered audits.

Is this true?

Opinions?

Well, 8.2.2.1 calls for auditing the QMS, 8.2.2.2 calls for manufacturing process audits, and 8.2.2.3 calls for product audits. Isn't that pretty much what layered auditing means?

 

[dbzman]

Clarification

I was remiss when I tried to explain what they told me.

They siad that I would have to have different layers of the organization audit.
That the GM should audit,
That the Production Manager should audit.
That the employees in the different layers of the organization HAVE to audit their own layer.

While this is a good idea is it a requirement?

 

[jmp4429]

I don't want to say "no" and be wrong about it. But I don't see in the standard where it says anything of the sort. Also, my company does not do this and nobody's taken away our certificate yet.

Maybe someone else could shed more light on it.

 

[db]

The Layered Audit is not required by TS, however it is a CSR (Customer Specific Requirement) for various organizations. You need to look at your customer specifics to determine you are required.

 

[dbzman]

2nd 3rd tier

We are 2nd or 3rd tier automotive. Our customers are the ones that deal directly with Ford, GM, etc.

The only requirement that we have had so far is to be TS 16949.

To me, our corporate people are asking for something (although it's a good thing to do) that is not required under TS.

Thanks for the input!

 

[anandqgp]

layered audits

Dear dbzman

I think If I am right, layered audit refers to auditing the same process by different persons occupying positions in the different layers in management. One layer could be Marketing, the others could New Product Development, HRD and so on. Idea is to getting view of the same process from different angles.

Collecting data from different layers, the same needs be analysed and work out a way for improvement.

While the line you have mentioned about clauses 8.2.1, 8.2.2 etc serve the different process i.e., one is auditing the QMS, second is auditing the Product and third is auditing the Process. Hence, you see that there is nothing like layer sort of thing. All are auditing different perceptions in an organisation.

Please revert back if you feel differently

HS Anand

 

[Warranty_Guy - 2012]

Layered Audits

We had the same conversation in our organization and opted to not implement Layered audit and the Auditor was fine. In the case of a CSR DCX does require it for there PSO 5, Gm only requires it if you have QSB implemented. Ford does not have a requirement on this.

We have implemented QSB and with that Layered Audits.

Therefore it is not a required element in the TS.

 

[cyndipaul]

Layered Process Audits (LPAs) is a DCX and GM requirement. The intent for TS is to meet Customer Specific Requirements which in this case is conducting LPAs. DCX has mandatory LPA training which is fairly inexpensive and provides DCX's LPA requirements. There are 2 types of LPAs: auditing the process and verifying error proofing/mistake proofing methods/devices. The LPA layers cascade throughout the facility, 1st layer=shift supervisors, 2nd layer functional area managers, 3rd layers top plant management.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

We had the same conversation in our organization and opted to not implement Layered audit and the Auditor was fine. In the case of a CSR DCX does require it for there PSO 5, Gm only requires it if you have QSB implemented. Ford does not have a requirement on this.

We have implemented QSB and with that Layered Audits.

Therefore it is not a required element in the TS.

Pardon me, I'm a little confused by your answer. It is not expressly stated as a requirment in the TS standard. But your customers' specific TS requirements are also part of the TS standard. So, if you are a supplier to DCX or GM, then it is a "TS Requirement." So...wouldn't that make it a TS requirement for you?