Layered Process Audits vs. Internal System Audits

J

jkittle

#1
We are being required to do LPA's by our customer and I'm confused. Do layered process audits take the place of the old internal quality audits?? Do we have to do both and does anyone have a procedure that covers this process?

I'm reading up on LPA's and I'm starting to get the understanding I just don't know if we stop the regular internal in place of LPA's?????
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

Jkittle:

If you look into the AIAG document on LPA's they are supposed to be run by you Manufacturing Management, so the 'objectivity' and 'impartiality' required would IMHO go out the window.:read:

Also, you have to internally audit processes other than the manufacturing processes. Similarly, the requirements for training are different - none for LPA's but required for TS.:yes:

There are many other threads here about LPA's. My experience says beware of LPA's - a good internal qms audit tells much more about an organization than 'looking over' the shoulder of the operators all the time!!:notme:

Andy
 
D

Duke Okes

#3
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

We are being required to do LPA's by our customer and I'm confused. Do layered process audits take the place of the old internal quality audits?? Do we have to do both and does anyone have a procedure that covers this process? I'm reading up on LPA's and I'm starting to get the understanding I just don't know if we stop the regular internal in place of LPA's?????
LPAs typically focus primarily on manufacturing processes (order fulfillment), so system audits still need to occur.
 
J

jkittle

#4
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

Thank you to both of you this helps!!


Jerry
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

According to CQI-8 from AIAG.

Layered Process Audits can be considered a process audit as required by ISO/TS 16949 :2002, Section 8.2.2.2,.
Does IATF accept this?
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

Anyone with comments on this?
 
#7
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

May I?

The AIAG Guideline suggests that LPAs may be used to meet the ISO/TS 16949 requirement for 'process audits'. Actually, 'TS' requires each manufacturing process to be audited to determine its effectiveness, which isn't necessarily the same thing as an LPA, whose main purpose is to see if the instructions and other controls are being used. They are, however, not a substitute for qulity systems audits.:nope:

In another section, the AIAG consider the results of LPAs to be one of the 'audit' inputs to Management Review, which looks reasonable.:yes:

Now for my 'spin' -:mg:

Having attended all manner of training, implemented LPAs and researched them, I don't agree with the AIAG that an LPA can be a substitute for any kind of audit. Since the embrassing requirement for audits (ISO 9001:2000 8.2.2) is that audits be conducted by personnel who are objective and impartial (and there's no modification under section TS 8.2.2.2 that says otherwise), my assertion is that the people who do these Layered Process audits are not going to to be either objective or impartial!:rolleyes:

Furthermore, the AIAG guide states that although they recommend a training be conducted on LPAs, the auditors do not need to be trained, in fact 'everyone is an auditor' - well, maybe, when h*ll freezes over....... Having worked with many trained internal auditors, even training doesn't always 'get it' for them, so heaven forbid the folks who audit without training.:(

Was that what you were asking for, Marc?;)

Andy
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

Well, I was researching several types of auditing and found this thread where Howard was sorta left standing without a response, so I asked for further comments. Your observation is appreciated. There is disagreement, especially with respect to what layered process audits are, for example, even between companies such as Ford and GM.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#9
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

Now for my 'spin' -:mg:

Having attended all manner of training, implemented LPAs and researched them, I don't agree with the AIAG that an LPA can be a substitute for any kind of audit. Since the embrassing requirement for audits (ISO 9001:2000 8.2.2) is that audits be conducted by personnel who are objective and impartial (and there's no modification under section TS 8.2.2.2 that says otherwise), my assertion is that the people who do these Layered Process audits are not going to to be either objective or impartial!:rolleyes:

Furthermore, the AIAG guide states that although they recommend a training be conducted on LPAs, the auditors do not need to be trained, in fact 'everyone is an auditor' - well, maybe, when h*ll freezes over....... Having worked with many trained internal auditors, even training doesn't always 'get it' for them, so heaven forbid the folks who audit without training.:(

Was that what you were asking for, Marc?;)

Andy
I agree with you, the whole internal audit requirements of TS are interpreted completly differently depending on the body that "controls" you:bonk:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
Re: Layered Process Audits vs Internal System Audits

We are being required to do LPA's by our customer and I'm confused. Do layered process audits take the place of the old internal quality audits?? Do we have to do both and does anyone have a procedure that covers this process?

I'm reading up on LPA's and I'm starting to get the understanding I just don't know if we stop the regular internal in place of LPA's?????

They cannot take the place of internal audits. As discussed throughout this thread, they are different in a number of ways. If properly constructed, they could fulfill the requirements for Manufacturing Process Audits (TS cl 8.2.2.2).
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
D Layered Process Audits - FCA 9.2.2 - Exemption Clause? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
J Requirements for Layered Process Audits including Maintenance, Shipping, Receiving IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
J Layered Process Audits using Kamishibai Board Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 3
P Interesting Discussion IATF 16949:2016 Clause 9.2.2.3 and Layered Process Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 18
S Help explaining LPA (Layered Process Audits) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
V QSB Layered Process Audits GM/OPEL Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
R Layered Process Audits Procedure of Form Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 3
A LPA's (Layered Process Audits) for Non-Production Support Processes Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 13
C Handling Repeated Non-Conformities when doing Layered Process Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 11
automoto Implementation of Layered Process Audits (LPA) Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 7
L Layered Process Audits: Efficiency, quality, safety or all the above? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 11
L Having faith in your Layered Process Auditors - Pencil whipping audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 8
A Definition Layered Process Audits - What are Layered Process Audits? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 12
H LPA's (Layered Process Audits) - Evaluation of Effectiveness Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 22
J LPAs (Layered Process Audits) and TS 16949 Clause 8.2.2.2 - Quick Question Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 20
J Evaluating and Reporting the Results of Layered Process Audits Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 9
M The Difference between Process Audits and Layered Audits General Auditing Discussions 5
F Tell me about Layered Process Audits (LPA) Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 2
A Layered Process Audits - Getting Results? Show me the data! Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 11
J Does anyone have a procedure that covers Layered Process Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 1
J Internal Process Auditing - Auditor Unhappy - Wants Layered Process Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 13
T Does Delphi's requirement for layered process audits only apply to their products? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 15
Crusader Layered Process Audits - Recommended Reading? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 24
R Layered Audits - Where to tie the layered audit process back to FMEA & Control Plan FMEA and Control Plans 10
D Layered Process Audits? Are they required by TS16949? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 13
B Defining Top Management for Layered Process Audits Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 9
K Differences between Manufacturing Process Audit & Layered Process Audit Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 4
K Layered Process Audit (LPA) Software IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
Stijloor AIAG Layered Process Audit 2nd Ed. (CQI-8) is now available. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
H Layered Process Audit Hard Copy Records Retention Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 6
N LPA (Layered Process Audit) Program - Visual Shop Display Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 4
T Historical Backround of LPA (Layered Process Audit) Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 7
Celtic Warrior Consolidating results of LPA (Layered Process Audit) for Management Review Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 13
A Access Database for LPA (Layered Process Audit) questions Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 3
V Layered Process Audit Schedule example Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 2
S Layered Process Audit Examples Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 4
I Can we use layered process audit (LPA) for HR Processes? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 9
L Layered Process Audit Basics Explained Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 5
Q Layered Process Auditing (LPA) for a service provider Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 4
Douglas E. Purdy Delphi CSR (Customer Specific Requirements) and LPAs (Layered Process Audit) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
J What is meant by number of "items"? Chrysler Layered Process Audit Question Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 10
J Layered Process Audit Examples Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 25
P Layered Process Audit & the Document Audit - Can anyone explain to me, Please? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 2
K What is a 'layered audit'? Layered Process Audit (LPA) - A GM requirement? Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 9
A Layered Process Audit Guidelines - The AIAG's CQI-8 Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 17
M Layered Process Audit (LPA) - Discipline in completely filling in the reports Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 3
Z Layered Process Audit Training - Need Powerpoint Presentation to train LPA auditors Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 5
PatMaz Layered Process Audit Procedure - Seeking an example Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 5
C DaimlerChrysler Layered Process audit experiences per the DC CSR's Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 3
C DaimlerChrysler Layered Process Audit Experiences per the DC CSR's Process Audits and Layered Process Audits 2

Similar threads

Top Bottom