Layout of the Manual of procedures

S

selena15

#1
Please someone correct me
during training, the consultant propose to us to things that i'm not knowledge about ????????
- she called the document control procedure by " the procedure of procedures" i thought that this called is removed please correct me
- she propose to the trainers to issue one manual of procedures: mean that they have to establish one manual which include the description of each procedures of the QMS of their company. every procedures in one sheet. it means that they will have the procedures and also its description in the manual of procedures.
:nopity: please tell me what do you think about this ..........:truce:
 
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C

Craig H.

#2
Re: Manual of procedures

Please someone correct me
during training, the consultant propose to us to things that i'm not knowledge about ????????
- she called the document control procedure by " the procedure of procedures" i thought that this called is removed please correct me
- she propose to the trainers to issue one manual of procedures: mean that they have to establish one manual which include the description of each procedures of the QMS of their company. every procedures in one sheet. it means that they will have the procedures and also its description in the manual of procedures.
:nopity: please tell me what do you think about this ..........:truce:
Hi, Selena!

I am having a little trouble understanding, but let me try to answer what I think you are asking. As English is my only language, it is my only option, I'm afraid.

In order to document how you organize your procedures (numbering, document control and so on) you need to have a document, or procedure, saying how this is done. This is often called the "procedure of procedures".

I believe your second question refers to what I call a master document list. This list has the document name, number (if applicable), and the current revision level or date. This will likely be refered to in the "procedure on procedures".

While these documents may not be specificly required in the standard, your are required to control your documents, and make sure that the current revisions are the ones that are being used.

I hope this helps.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#3
Re: Manual of procedures

she called the document control procedure by " the procedure of procedures"
You can name it the Quality System Documentation Procedure - it gives a brief outline on the contents, format of documentation and others.

she propose to the trainers to issue one manual of procedures
What it meant is that you can combine the manual and procedures into one. A popular approach over here.
 
P

Peter West

#4
Harry, In your opinion, where setting out the manual as a primary tier document and operating procedures as secondary tier documents, which should have greater detail?

I am thinking the manual should really be an overview/a summary of the operating procedure (which would have much more detail and almost a step by step approach)?

Does that sound right or am I the wrong way around? :confused:
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Peter, I would agree with you that the procedures contain more detail than the manual but I am not sure I would put anything like a procedure in the manual, just policies. e.g. I might explain our policy for purchasing from approved suppliers and placing formal orders in the manual whilst the purchasing procedure would elaborate on that policy and define responsibilities etc.

I have seen organisations get themselves into knots by repeating themselves in the manual and procedures. An example I recently saw was where they had explained about holding a management review in the manual and also put their agenda in there. They then had a procedure also with an agenda - which was of course different because someone had updated it without realising that it was also in the manual. Just to make it more interesting, they had a Word template they used for recording the minutes of the meeting and it was different again!
 
S

selena15

#6
hi cove
thanks to all for replies which is please to me so much :tg:

sorry graig for my english, it still in progres, but for your remark, let me explain little more. i know what you are talking about, it is the document control procedure, which is mandotory by the ISO, in order to fix all what you are talking about. i'm raising abojection about to call these procedures as " the procedures of procedures" !!!!!!!! as i know the appellation was used by the past by habit and as i knew from one consultant it was never mentioned like this by ISO 9001 vs 1994 or previous one as well and of course not into the 2000 version !
and i know the list that you are talking about, we got it too. these lady was asking not for list but to establish one real manual which contain just kind of specification of each procedures we have. mean that we should do one specification who resume any procedure we have and we have to put together all these specifications into book called the manual of procedures!!!!!!!!!
not combine the quality manual with the procedures but to have one Qaulity manual , procedures and one manual of procedures !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as colpart said repetition.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Please someone correct me during training, the consultant propose to us to things that i'm not knowledge about ????????
- she called the document control procedure by " the procedure of procedures".
Selena,

I believe your instructor was using a some what metaphoric phrase. They were saying that the Document Control procedure is the procedure of procedures because it defines the entire Document Control program.

"Procedure of Procedures" at least that is how I would interpret it, but I have interpreted incorrectly before.
 
Last edited:

atitheya

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
Hi Selena,

Regarding two manuals,

It can be very effective when you look at your entire management system.

You would have one Quality Manual giving a brief overview of your Quality Management System, as rightly put by Colpart that it would contain the policies, or maybe an overview of the processes, their interaction and relationship with the standard among others; things that you might have to share with other parties in due course of time. I have seen instances where customers may ask for an organisation's Quality Manual before getting into an agreement / contract. This will not include any of your procedures in detail, not even the required mandatory procedures.

So what happens to the procedures, the mandatory ones as well as standard operating procedures and may be some others as required by your organisation? These will have detailed description of the processes and may contain proprietery information which you may not want to share with anyone outside the organisation. You compile these in a different manual and may call it 'Procedure Manual' or simply 'Procedures'.

Thus two manuals.

While establishing a detailed management system with the help of ISO9001, I get my client to do the same. They are trained by me, they write all the procedures (since they know the best how they would work + other advantages for them) and I review the same with them to close the gap with ISO9001 requirements where and as applicable to their system. A seperate Quality Manual is prepared giving an overview of the company and its operations reflecting how Quality is managed, maintained and improved.

Remember, to have an effective Quality Management System, you have to develop your management system to satisfy your operational requirement applying ISO9001 where applicable. You will get it better and more effective than a management system developed just to satisfy the standard's requirement only.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#9
Harry, In your opinion, where setting out the manual as a primary tier document and operating procedures as secondary tier documents, which should have greater detail? ...........................
Peter, I would have done it the way Colin (Colpart) described.
 
A

Al Hector

#10
Hello,
My interpretation about the “Procedure of Procedures” is similar with Mr. Coury Ferguson approach .
About the second issue I think that paragraph 4.2.2 b from ISO 9001 clear requires that the Quality Manual shall include the documented procedures established for the quality management system, or reference to them.

So what happens to the procedures, the mandatory ones as well as standard operating procedures and may be some others as required by your organisation? These will have detailed description of the processes and may contain proprietery information which you may not want to share with anyone outside the organisation. You compile these in a different manual and may call it 'Procedure Manual' or simply 'Procedures'.

Thus two manuals.

While establishing a detailed management system with the help of ISO9001, I get my client to do the same. They are trained by me, they write all the procedures (since they know the best how they would work + other advantages for them) and I review the same with them to close the gap with ISO9001 requirements where and as applicable to their system. A seperate Quality Manual is prepared giving an overview of the company and its operations reflecting how Quality is managed, maintained and improved.

QUOTE]

I.M.H.O to have another manual only for procedures may be useful only when you start to implement ISO 9001. But this manual will contains a lot of procedure and after you have “harmonized” the procedures with ISO 9001 requirements this manual is another document which must be controlled .I think that the control will be quite difficult, because the procedures which are inside will be quite often revised.

Just my opinion,
Alin
 
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