"LEAD AUDITOR" terminology - 3rd Party Auditors can't make up their minds

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#11
Dr. L. Ramakrishnan said:
I think by "define" you mean "appoint" an Audit Team leader; if that is the case I agree that a team leader has to be "defined" to carry out the audit.
My understanding has been that there is a difference between "define" and "appoint"; they do not mean the same thing in this thread. In xfngrs' post that started this thread, the question was regarding the use of the term "Lead" to describe the roles and responsibilities of an Internal Auditor.

What I am reading in this thread is that within an Internal Audit, the roles and responsibilities of a Lead Auditor or a Team Leader are the same, thus the 'job titles' of this leadership function are synonomous with each other.

ISO 9001:2000 requires us to ensure that the "...responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits....shall be defined in a documented procedure." At the end of '8.2.2 Internal audits', however we find the following Note telling us to refer to "...ISO 10011-1, ISO 10011-2 and ISO 10011-3 for guidance."

The key word here is guidance. It is not a requirement for Internal Auditors to meet the characteristics and traits described in ISO 10011 or ISO 19011.

Don't misunderstand me, Dr. L...personally, I would love it if all of my Internal Auditors met that which is in ISO 19011, but it's not going to happen. My Internal Auditors are not full-time auditors. They conduct one or two audits a year (maybe), depending on their availability and workload.

I do know, however, that with in my Internal Auditor Pool there are some Internal Auditors who are great at sifting through paperwork and asking questions, but can not rephrase the requirements of ISO 9001:2000 in a language the auditee understands and have rather appalling time management skills. These Internal Auditors will not assume a leadership function within an Internal Audit until their skills can demonstrate that they are qualified/competent. In our documented procedure, these people are designated as "Team Auditors".

Some of my other Internal Auditors, however, have an amazing awareness and knowledge of ISO 9001:2000 and our Internal Audit process, possess great investigative and observation skills, manage their time well, adhere to all safety rules and regulations and take take detailed notes. These people possess the qualifications/comptencies necessary to assume a leadership role within our Internal Audit process. In our documented procedure, these people are designated as "Lead Auditors".

What I have been reading in this thread has been advice to xfngrs to define the roles and responsibilites of what his/her Organization classifies as a "Lead Auditor" within their Internal Audit process. They may not meet all that is described in ISO 19011, but they do not need to. As long as they are deemed to be qualified/competent by xfngrs' Organization and the requirements that they must meet to be considered qualified/competent are documented (and objective evidence maintained demonstrating their qualfications/competencies), then no External Auditor or Registrar should take issue to this.
 
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W

WALLACE

#12
RC,
You should be a lecturer :applause:
I'm amazed at the semantics of auditing. Clarity is indeed needed and, that's why we have an auditing guideline such as 19011.
Organizational systems are very subjective and should be viewed as such. "Don't mess with my system" :mad: , I've heard many third party auditors being told by auditee organizations.
Internal systems are there for organizational efficacy, and that's that. I dare any third party auditor to mess with my internal system.
Wallace.
 

The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#13
Yeah. . . what she said :agree1:

I did in fact mean "define" that role (If the company chooses to do so). . . not "appoint." Appoint takes that choice for participation away from the potential auditor. As in many cases, being an auditor is not for everyone. . . those that audit should want to audit and be qualified (verb) accordingly. By appointing someone to an auditor role, you may get half the audit you want . . . and not achieve the desired results. . . . or planned arrangements.

Defining a "role" is specifically generic. An oxymoron. . . I know.

JMHO
 
M

mshell

#14
I agree with Taz & Roxy. :agree1: I meant define as well. A simple definition of Lead Auditor (Internal) in the Internal Audit Procedure could clarify this situation as long as it works for the organization in question.
 
#15
Dear Friends,

Very interesting points and views on the subject indeed !!! My experience is with ISO-14001. For all the certified units (about 12 now) for which I am responsible as a "resource person", I have always taken into consideration the criteria given in ISO-14011 & ISO-14012 (now ISO-19011) while conducting ISO-14001 EMS audits. Today in all our units we have a set of qualified internal auditors who carry out the audit as per the plan of that unit; the "team leader" and the audit team is identified in the Plan for the audit. I can understand the views expressed; 4.5.4 does not refer to ISO-19011 (or ISO-14011) - it is therefore natural to have your own system for auditing. But the certification body is bound by IAF guidance on applicaion of ISO/IEC Guide 66 document. This is not, in general, made known to the auditee organization. I have not heard of a certification auditor even mentioning this to the auditee. May be I am repeating what I said earlier; it is nice to have your own system for audit - but the certification agency is bound by the IAF. For a moment put yourself in the shoes of the Certification agency - if you do not point out the non-conformance to the ISO-19011 standard, the accreditation agency (like RvA or UKAS) will give you a non-conformance to Guide 66. What is needed is an explicit link shown in 4.5.4 to ISO-19011 if ISO-19011 has to be followed; or if 4.5.4 does not prescribe ISO-19011, the IAF document should not refer to an audit according a standard. Unless these corrections are effected in the referred documents, we will continue to have this issue cropping up often.

Best wishes, Ramakrishnan
 
#16
RCBeyette said:
The key word here is guidance. It is not a requirement for Internal Auditors to meet the characteristics and traits described in ISO 10011 or ISO 19011.
That's true it is only a guidance document. Unless, of course your customer requires your auditors to be qualified to the standard; As does GM.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#17
Dr. L. Ramakrishnan said:
4.5.4 does not refer to ISO-19011 (or ISO-14011) - it is therefore natural to have your own system for auditing. But the certification body is bound by IAF guidance on applicaion of ISO/IEC Guide 66 document.
But we who are registered to ISO 14001:1996 are not bound by IAF guidance. We are to meet the requirements of ISO 14001:1996. We are the Organization, not the Registrar.

Dr. L. Ramakrishnan said:
This is not, in general, made known to the auditee organization. I have not heard of a certification auditor even mentioning this to the auditee.
How can it be made know to us if it is not part of the Standard? We are registered to a Standard not Guidelines. Yes, if we want more than just the piece of paper on the wall and is both feasible and practical, we'll refer to (and follow) the Guidelines but as long as the "shall" of the Standard is addressed, I see no room for a statement of nonconformity.

Dr. L. Ramakrishnan said:
May be I am repeating what I said earlier; it is nice to have your own system for audit - but the certification agency is bound by the IAF. For a moment put yourself in the shoes of the Certification agency - if you do not point out the non-conformance to the ISO-19011 standard, the accreditation agency (like RvA or UKAS) will give you a non-conformance to Guide 66.
It was pointed out to us and was about to be an issued nonconformance until I asked where the ISO 14001:1996 STANDARD indicated this requirement. It was then made an Opportunity for Improvement. I'm sure by now you've guessed that we rejected this OFI based on it's lack of practicality for us. There is currently no perceived value to having all of our Internal Auditors meeting the "nice to have's" laid out in a Guidance document.

Dr. L. Ramakrishnan said:
What is needed is an explicit link shown in 4.5.4 to ISO-19011 if ISO-19011 has to be followed; or if 4.5.4 does not prescribe ISO-19011, the IAF document should not refer to an audit according a standard. Unless these corrections are effected in the referred documents, we will continue to have this issue cropping up often.
I disagree. So long as the Standard with requirements to which we are registered does not state this explicit link requirement, a nonconformance stating that our QMS/EMS is out of compliance will not be valid. Even Annex A of ISO 14001:1996 (provides guidance on the use of the specification (i.e., the Standard to which we are registered)) states:

ISO14001:1996 said:
A.5.4 Environmental management system audit

The audit programme and procedures should cover:

a) the activities and areas to be considered in audits;
b) the frequency of audits;
c) the responsibitlies associated with managing and conducting audits;
d) the communication of audit results;
e) auditor competence;
f) how audits will be conducted.

Audits may be performed by personnel from within the organization and/or by external persons selected by the organization. In either case, the persons conducting the audit should be in a position to do so impartially and objectively.
I also refer to the definition of an environmental management system audit as being "a systematic and documented verification process of objectively obtaining and evaluating evidence to determine whether an organization's environmental management system conforms to the environmental management system audit criteria set by the organization, and for communication of the results of this process to management."

Neither the Annex or the definition refers to ISO 19011 or Guide 66. But it is stated that it's the criteria of the Organization that is audited...and if we use the term Lead Auditor and provide the traits/characterisitics/requirements for an internal personnel to fullfill in order to attain that title, then I see nothing yet that justifies a nonconformance in this matter.

When ISO 14001:200X states that our Internal Auditors must meet that which is in ISO 19011, then we will comply (or allow our registration to the Standard to lapse stating a lack of practicality/feasibility).

I just am not convinced that this is a requirement. If it is a requirement, tell me where, please (provide a quote indicating the requirement for Organizations that are registered to ISO 14001:1996 to have Internal Auditors that meet the guidelines set out in ISO 19011)...and after I am done eating my slice of humble pie :eek: , I'll convey the requirement to our EMS Management Representative.
 
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#18
RCBeyette said:
I just am not convinced that this is a requirement. If it is a requirement, tell me where, please (provide a quote indicating the requirement for Organizations that are registered to ISO 14001:1996 to have Internal Auditors that meet the guidelines set out in ISO 19011)...and after I am done eating my slice of humble pie :eek: , I'll convey the requirement to our EMS Management Representative.
Save your humble pie for a later date. There is NO REQUIREMENT to use ISO 19011 with ISO 14001; only a subtle hint in ISO 14004 . The primary description for the audit procedure is described in the last paragraph of 4.5.4.
 
#19
As many have stated, we tend to get hung up on phrases and definitions. I don not think it is necessary to place our definitions in the quality documentation. If all agree that a "lead auditor" is the person who heads up the audit team, then that is what it means. If an auditor wants to write this up, then it is the auditor's responsibility to "quote the shall". The only requirements for internal auditors is that they be competent (6.2.2) and they can audit objectively, impartially, and they not audit their own work (8.2.2).

Don't let registrars run your business.
 
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