Let the Registrar audit the Internal Audit process

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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#13
I guess one of the problems here is "where does it stop?" I know a training organisation that run IRCA registered courses and they had recently been audited by IRCA. When the ISO 9001 cert body auditor turned up he was informed that the training organisation had not done all of the internal audits but it didn't matter because IRCA had already audited them during their visit!

On this basis, I suppose if the organisation had a 2nd party audit, they could leave out the internal audits on anything they covered too.

I too would raise an NC but not a major. There is a system in place but it has a single breakdown. (I hope this does not escalate into another of those "what is a major/minor" debates).:)
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
So how are your other 2 auditors independent when they are involved in the audit process?
Because they are not the process owners, nor are they even part of the department that owns the process.

Being involved in a process <> conflict of interest.
Using that logic my QC inspectors can't be auditors because they are involved in every department in the company to some extent.
 
T

tarheels4 - 2007

#16
I too would raise an NC but not a major. There is a system in place but it has a single breakdown. (I hope this does not escalate into another of those "what is a major/minor" debates).:)
I agree, that if the rest of the management system was audited with reasonable evidence of conformance and non-conformance, but the internal audit process was missing from the audit record, then it should be a minor. A reasonable auditor would see that the audit process was effective, although the organization was confused as to the requirement to audit its' own internal audit process.
 

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#17
Thanks everybody for your inputs. Actually, we did receive a Minor NC from our CB for failing to include in our Audit Plan a schedule to audit the Internal Audit process.

We feel that auditing or not auditing the Internal Audit process will only produce insignificant results for us, except that we want to be certified against a standard.

Anyway, the "requirement" can be easily satisfied by a lot of ways as you have suggested.

tony s
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#18
Thanks everybody for your inputs. Actually, we did receive a Minor NC from our CB for failing to include in our Audit Plan a schedule to audit the Internal Audit process.

We feel that auditing or not auditing the Internal Audit process will only produce insignificant results for us, except that we want to be certified against a standard.

Anyway, the "requirement" can be easily satisfied by a lot of ways as you have suggested.

tony s
You're welcome.

Expecting insignificant results is no reason to exclude that function from the audit schedule.

On what evidence does your organization base this assumption?

Please remember that I used the word "effective." Understanding a function's effectiveness requires an examination based on data. The audit function's contribution to the organization's effectiveness is the question. Including all the necessary functions in the audit schedule is just one tiny part of compliance, which is designed to help contribute to effectiveness but certainly is not all the being effective requires.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#19
We feel that auditing or not auditing the Internal Audit process will only produce insignificant results for us, except that we want to be certified against a standard.

tony s
Probably because you don't allow it to be a value added process and relegate it to the "oh well, this is just another pain-in-the-fanny thing we have to do".

You only get out what you put in.
 

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#20
Probably because you don't allow it to be a value added process...
We are a small company, a commercial printing press. If we let ourselves depend on the well compensated external auditors to do it (audit the IA process) for us, will it reduce the value? Or will it add more value? We're not taking it out, we just want somebody to do it more effectively for us.

We don't see also a solid basis for raising a nonconformity for not auditing internally the IA process.

tony s
 
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