SBS - The best value in QMS software

Level of Detail in a Quality Manual vs. a Procedure

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
Forgive my tardy reply, I was out of the office yesterday with a 7 year old suffering from bronchitis. Not fun. :nope:

I am storing my documentation on a separate drive on our server that has limited access by only a couple people. So what you'e saying is that if I just have a more detailed table of contents of sorts I'd be covered??
If you look at the quality manual requirements in the standard, so long as the requirements are met, it doesn't matter what the medium is. No paper required. A TOC with links to the relevant material would work just fine so long as requirements for control are maintained.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
T

trainerbob

#12
I agree with keeping things as simple as you can. Too much detail can paint you in a corner and no work can get done. There are the three requirements for a "quality manual". Why not keep it at that?
 
R

RK-REX

#13
I think I just might go that route. My auditor was raving (jokingly) about a 43 page manual, so I leaned it out to 27 pages, but looking at it with this new information, I can eliminate a lot of the verbiage and move it to the procedures themselves.

I'm really glad I asked this question, I've learned a lot already with just a few posts.

:thanks::thanks:
 
R

RK-REX

#14
Ok, once again, please forgive my ignorance, I'm learning...

I know it's not really advisable to copy the Standard verbatim, but when I touch on each of the elements as I put my QM on a diet, do I need to mention all of the points listed in the standard? Or can I just state that we've established a procedure to meet the requirements of the Standard?

For example.

I now have:

"5.6 MANAGEMENT REVIEW

5.6.1 GENERAL

5.6.1.1 Management reviews of the QMS are conducted bi-annually, in order to ensure the continuing suitability, adequacy and effectiveness of the QMS in accordance with QSP 5.6 – Management Review of the Quality Management System. Records of management reviews shall be maintained per § 4.2.4 Control of Records.

5.6.2 MANAGEMENT REVIEW INPUT

5.6.2.1 The purpose of Management Review is to evaluated collected data from the following sources:

o Results of audits

o Customer feedback

o QSP, SP & WI performance and product conformity

o Status of Corrective and Preventive Actions

o Follow-up actions from previous management reviews

o Changes that could affect the QMS

o Recommendations for improvement

5.6.3 MANAGEMENT REVIEW OUTPUT

5.6.3.1 The output from Management Review includes decisions and actions relating to:

o Improvement of the effectiveness of the QMS and its processes

o Improvement of product related to customer requirements;

o Resource needs


Could I change it to the following statement and then get into the details of how we meet the requirements in the actual procedure?

"5.6 MANAGEMENT REVIEW

5.6.1 GENERAL

5.6.1.1 Management reviews of the QMS are conducted biannually, in order to ensure the continuing suitability, adequacy and effectiveness of the QMS in accordance with QSP 5.6 – Management Review of the Quality Management System. Records of management reviews shall be maintained per § 4.2.4 Control of Records."
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
In the manual you do not need to say about how each clause of the standard is addressed by you. The manual is not a response to the standard but the manual is a place where the scope of your qms is stated, justifications for any exclusions of the standard clause is detailed, Procedures as required by the standard and your qms is included or references to them is mentioned (A good method is to have a table that has list of all your documented procedures) and a description of how your various qms processes interacts.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#16
Ok, once again, please forgive my ignorance, I'm learning...

I know it's not really advisable to copy the Standard verbatim, but when I touch on each of the elements as I put my QM on a diet, do I need to mention all of the points listed in the standard? Or can I just state that we've established a procedure to meet the requirements of the Standard?

For example.

I now have:

"5.6 MANAGEMENT REVIEW

5.6.1 GENERAL

5.6.1.1 Management reviews of the QMS are conducted bi-annually, in order to ensure the continuing suitability, adequacy and effectiveness of the QMS in accordance with QSP 5.6 – Management Review of the Quality Management System. Records of management reviews shall be maintained per § 4.2.4 Control of Records.

5.6.2 MANAGEMENT REVIEW INPUT

5.6.2.1 The purpose of Management Review is to evaluated collected data from the following sources:

o Results of audits

o Customer feedback

o QSP, SP & WI performance and product conformity

o Status of Corrective and Preventive Actions

o Follow-up actions from previous management reviews

o Changes that could affect the QMS

o Recommendations for improvement

5.6.3 MANAGEMENT REVIEW OUTPUT

5.6.3.1 The output from Management Review includes decisions and actions relating to:

o Improvement of the effectiveness of the QMS and its processes

o Improvement of product related to customer requirements;

o Resource needs


Could I change it to the following statement and then get into the details of how we meet the requirements in the actual procedure?

"5.6 MANAGEMENT REVIEW

5.6.1 GENERAL

5.6.1.1 Management reviews of the QMS are conducted biannually, in order to ensure the continuing suitability, adequacy and effectiveness of the QMS in accordance with QSP 5.6 – Management Review of the Quality Management System. Records of management reviews shall be maintained per § 4.2.4 Control of Records."
As Somashekar pointed out, there is no need to have that level of detail in your quality manual. You do not have to show how you are going to address every "shall" of the standard in the quality manual, or in your procedures either for that matter.

Your quality manual needs three things (see element 4.2.2)

1) A scope statement including justification for any exclusions.

2) Your written procedures, or reference them.

3) A description of the interaction between your processes.

Focus on the second part. Your quality manual does not need to include your written procedures as long as you reference them. That could simply be a copy of a table of contents for your written procedures. Those written procedures do not need to include how you address every "shall". The written procedures need to include the six topics that the standard says need to be documented (control of documents, control of records, internal audit, control of nonconforming product, corrective actions, and preventive actions). You may determine that you want more, and whatever you determine has to be documented.

Some companies decide to include the procedures in their quality manual. Some decide to reference them. Some do provide a somewhat paraphrased version of the standard in the quality manual and then have written procedures as well. My general attitude is why duplicate that stuff. Forget about paraphrasing the standard and just write the procedures. When your quality manual and procedure manual overlaps, you end up on an easter egg hunt when trying to determine where you need to look.

So my preferred method is to have a combined manual. Include your written procedures, but forget about paraphrasing the standard.

Do what works for you.
 
R

RK-REX

#17
In the manual you do not need to say about how each clause of the standard is addressed by you. The manual is not a response to the standard but the manual is a place where the scope of your qms is stated, justifications for any exclusions of the standard clause is detailed, Procedures as required by the standard and your qms is included or references to them is mentioned (A good method is to have a table that has list of all your documented procedures) and a description of how your various qms processes interacts.
With more and more replies to this thread, I'm learning so much from everyone. Thank you again for the education!!
 
R

RK-REX

#18
I agree with keeping things as simple as you can. Too much detail can paint you in a corner and no work can get done. There are the three requirements for a "quality manual". Why not keep it at that?
I believe that is the way I'm going to go. I'm famous for overdoing things. My background as a machinist, being a bit anal about details and a bit of ADHD are not good things to have when trying to simplify things sometimes. :D
 
R

RK-REX

#19
........... My general attitude is why duplicate that stuff. Forget about paraphrasing the standard and just write the procedures. When your quality manual and procedure manual overlaps, you end up on an easter egg hunt when trying to determine where you need to look.

So my preferred method is to have a combined manual. Include your written procedures, but forget about paraphrasing the standard.

Do what works for you.
I agree and I think that is the route I'm going to take. I kind of feel defeated after spending weeks on the manual, but this is forward progress, I'm ok with learning through my mistakes as long as it keeps getting better.

Thanks again!!!
 
R

RK-REX

#20
Sorry for all of the separate replies, I received a PM from a member and needed to have 10 posts to reply to them. ;);)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Quality Procedures - General Detail Level and Record Keeping Requirements Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
T 510k Level of Detail Requirements 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 7
H Calibration Procedure Level of Detail - ISO Procedure question Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
M Applying EN 62304 - Medical Device Software Architecture - Level of Detail IEC 62304 - Medical Device Software Life Cycle Processes 21
J Level of Technical Detail of Technical File Submission ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
R Level of detail required - Results of Corrective, Preventive Action ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
K ISO 14001:2004 - 4.3.2 Legal & Other Requirements - Level of detail expected ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 18
M 8.2.4 Monitor and Measure Question - Re: Sub-Assemblies and Level of Detail Required ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
J FMEA Level of Detail - Is the registrar's auditor correct? FMEA and Control Plans 1
W Control Plan Content Requirements - Level of Detail FMEA and Control Plans 25
J Part submission warrant for Level 1 PPAP APQP and PPAP 1
A Defining a lower ESD test level in IEC 60601 safety test IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 5
was named killer Onsite Level II N.D.T. Training in Florida Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 0
D High level understanding of EUDAMED EU Medical Device Regulations 3
D Supplier Quality level category help - high level ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
silentmonkey Rationalising the level of effort and depth of software validation based on risk ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
Y What are different Special Inspection Level 1-4 and General spesification 1-3 ? AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 0
D Supplier Quality - How to classify a supplier level Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 10
E Received a Major finding during IATF Surveillance audit for loss of BIQS Level 3 (more than 6 SPPS in 6 months)...how should we address SYSTEMIC CA? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
J Level 3 KPI Excel Template Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
M Informational How to perform a clinical evaluation of medical devices – Part 2 – Level of clinical evidence and what sufficient clinical evidence means Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 9
R Bottom up approach versus system level ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 2
C Failure nets - Same level effects FMEA and Control Plans 0
H Graphical analysis of results - Confidence level bands nomenclature Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 2
S Level of Clinical Evidence - MDR EU Medical Device Regulations 3
D GM BIQS level 5 requirements Customer and Company Specific Requirements 5
I Sampling processes - Who must define the AQL level? AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 9
R Identifying internal issues.. at what level? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
I What level of change in documentation requires re-training? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
M Level 3 PPAP submission of intentional defective parts APQP and PPAP 4
eule del ayre List of Level 3 PPAP requirements for automotive suppliers APQP and PPAP 20
I Document levels and approval requirements for lower level documents like work instructions, forms etc. Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 18
B AS9102 FAI & Lower Level Drawings - How should we perform the FAI? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
Rameshwar25 What is a Control Plan at "Material Level"? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
N How to resolve discrepancies in Level 3 PPAP supplier dimensional reports? APQP and PPAP 11
M Creating a Plant Level Value Stream Map Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 1
K Defining Acceptance Quality Level, I need clarity on AQL 1.5, 2.5, 4.0 AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 5
P GM BIQS level 5 training? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 2
Ron Rompen Dual level holes - Measurement method suggestions wanted General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 9
A Level of details required for Class IIb Product Verification and Validation CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 1
D System Level FMEA example wanted FMEA and Control Plans 2
samer Do we have to determine Educational level for all Staff as pr 7.2 b clause? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
J What level PPAP for 5 critical parts? APQP and PPAP 8
Paul Simpson Informational The role of Annex SL - High Level Structure of ISO MSS's - Revision Update February 2019 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 26
E High level structure - Planning and operation control Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 2
rob73 Worldwide device regulatory authorities at country level Other Medical Device Regulations World-Wide 6
K Biocompatibility Testing - Component Level or Assembled Medical Device? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
C Example Work Instruction/Procedure for AQL (Acceptable Quality Level) AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 4
W Level of V&V in Class II Medical Device (Dialysis Machine) IEC 62304 - Medical Device Software Life Cycle Processes 10
K FDA Premarket Submissions for Embedded Software - Level of Concern Other US Medical Device Regulations 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom