LOGS - Record or Document? How to control logs?

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lrl116

#1
There is a lot of discussion within my organization on whether a log is a record or a document. Currently, we list logs on our document control master list. Management then defines a completed log as a record but does not list it on the Quality Record Index. The logs are manintained on a web site repository. Some of the logs are blank in this repository, considered a document, and the completed logs are maintained on shared LAN drives, considered records.

Does anyone have any insight on how to control logs?

Examples of some of the logs that are maintained include: security logs (include details of nightly security checks), continuous improvement logs, data load testing, systems issue logs, etc.

Please send advice!
 
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Crusader

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Logs...

We have logs that are not records and some that are! For instance, we have a QC Log for in-process parts that are incoming into the department for inspection, who received/inspected them. The logs are merely just that and nothing more. It's for internal use/tracking of how many parts are being checked per shift. We also have Logs that are used for recording operator maintenance on machinery - that's a record. It is better to name your documents appropriately - something we need to go back and do ourselves. Hope that helps. :bigwave:
 
K

Kevin H

#3
IMO, your blank logs are the equivalent of forms. The completed ones are records. Both forms and records are special types/categories of documents. They need to be controlled based upon the needs of your management system for quality. If you define a completed log as a quality record, I would expect to find it in your quality record index. If the logs you mentioned are part of your quality system, I would expect the resulting records to be controlled.

Control of the blank logs(forms) could be as simple as having a statement in your quality system that the most recent revision is always found on-line in folder xyz on server abc, and then having some revision data included in the header or footer of your log if it is in Excel or Word.

Or control could be complex & detailed, describing access to them, how it's controlled, who has the authority to change the logs, who is responsible for removing them when no longer needed, how long to archive, etc.

Whether to go simple or complex depends on the nature of your business, and the quality system you've developed for it. My personal bias is to try to keep it as simple as possible and to drive authority/decision making as far down as possible/management is comfortable with.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#4
I use logs to collect data on first piece and final inspection. The data is tallied weekly and the logs are destroyed.
 
L

lrl116

#5
It sounds like you destroy the logs and do not controll them. Is that correct?

I just don't know if I should keep the logs listed on the document control master list or if they should just be listed on the quality record index.

Is it ok to have logs that are considered records after they are filled-in but not list them on a Quality Record Index?
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#6
We control logs that collect information used in the process just as any other record, other than that they are usually an electronic form vs. paper. Now, I know that there are people that log stuff for their own scheduling, that we do not control. I consider that as a "day planner" type activity. But anything that records the status of the process at a given point in time is a quality (or environmental) record. Ex. pH logs, speed change logs, etc.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Kevin H said:
IMO, your blank logs are the equivalent of forms. The completed ones are records. Both forms and records are special types/categories of documents. They need to be controlled based upon the needs of your management system for quality. If you define a completed log as a quality record, I would expect to find it in your quality record index. If the logs you mentioned are part of your quality system, I would expect the resulting records to be controlled.

Control of the blank logs(forms) could be as simple as having a statement in your quality system that the most recent revision is always found on-line in folder xyz on server abc, and then having some revision data included in the header or footer of your log if it is in Excel or Word.

Or control could be complex & detailed, describing access to them, how it's controlled, who has the authority to change the logs, who is responsible for removing them when no longer needed, how long to archive, etc.

Whether to go simple or complex depends on the nature of your business, and the quality system you've developed for it. My personal bias is to try to keep it as simple as possible and to drive authority/decision making as far down as possible/management is comfortable with.
Kevin's answer is similar to what I would respond. Logs and records are a special form of document which can be "updated," but not "modified," meaning that it is HISTORY and "it's not nice to rewrite history."

Control is a sliding scale, depending on requirements of customers, regulators, and the organization business purpose. At its most basic, control simply means making an effort to assure folks do not mistakenly refer to an obsolete document. Complex control can get REALLY complex when one begins to consider security matters of protecting sensitive data from competitors or info about one customer or supplier being accessed by another customer or supplier.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#8
lrl116 said:
It sounds like you destroy the logs and do not controll them. Is that correct?
Yes - that is correct. I use my logs to record first piece approvals and final inspection pass thru. The information is tallied on to a spread sheet, then plotted on a graph. The graphs are used to measure the effectivity of our system.

lrl116 said:
Is it ok to have logs that are considered records after they are filled-in but not list them on a Quality Record Index?
If this is your method for identifiying records, then, yes, the must be on your index.
 
L

lrl116

#9
Thank you for the discussion.

I still have not decided if I should document control logs on my document control master list and assign them a number. My current system has document control numbers assigned to all logs. But I am new in the organization and I feel that they should be also listed on the QRI if they are considered records once information is entered.

So a log is a document until it has information on it and then becomes a record.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
a record is just a special type of document. A blank form with no data is also a document. Once data is entered on the form, it may become a document (such as filling out a purchase request) or it can become a record (such as filling out a machine log.)

Some records have a very short life (one of the previous writers wrote of a log that was destroyed after the information was transferred to a different document.) Other documents can be permanent records (ever been on the receiving end of a teacher's threat "this will go on your permanent record!" ?)

The concept of using
document control master list and assign them a number
is merely a filing technique. Modern computers have search and retrieval systems which makes such master lists obsolete and redundant. This is only a REQUIREMENT for certain regulatory bodies. It is really no more a "requirement" for complying with ISO Standards than determining whether to use tan file folders or orange (my personal favorite!)
 
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