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Looking for alternatives to ISO 9001 accreditation

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#21
Hmmm, I thought that BS 5750 (the forerunner of ISO 9001) was a derivative of military standards which were 'forced' upon suppliers to the military. In other words, it was because customers required it.

Indeed, the early versions of BS 5750/ISO 9001 rarely helped companies to improve their systems at all.
From memory of when I was working at BSI there was an article in one of the house magazines about the history of BS 5750.

Industry asked BSI to develop a standard based on the AQAPs and it was a mixture of people who wanted a model from their own use and those that wanted a model to impose on their suppliers.

I have a query in with BSI to see if anyone can shed some further light. Watch this space ...
 
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al40

Quite Involved in Discussions
#22
Re: Looking for alternatives for ISO 9000 accredition

RD,

I am with Jennifer on this one... I'm in the same position you are. We are a small CNC Mill shop with 7 employees. I am in charge of putting together the documentation of our quality system. We were in a rush to register, but now have backed off knowing that we can claim that we are compliant without registration. I have been working on our ISO 9K1: 2K now for about 4 months and have made a ton of progress with the help from the wonderful people here at the Cove. You will find their knowledge invaluable!! Do a few searches and save yourself some money by finding what you need here.

Like Marc says: "Never underestimate the power of a good search!"

And take the advice about buying the standard... I purchased the requirements and guidelines and that has helped immensely!

Good Luck!
KWalls is right. Use the site and it will help out. The Cove has some of the best quality talent available.

I would also recommend buying the book: ISO9001:2000 Explained by West, Tsiakals, and Cianfrani.

Best regards,

al40
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#23
Hmmm, I thought that BS 5750 (the forerunner of ISO 9001) was a derivative of military standards which were 'forced' upon suppliers to the military. In other words, it was because customers required it.

Indeed, the early versions of BS 5750/ISO 9001 rarely helped companies to improve their systems at all.

I can't address BS 5750. (Maybe the BS part should have been a clue?).

But, if you read the forward to ISO 9001:1994, and esp. the related standards like 9004, it is clear the intent was to help companies get better. And in Europe, a lot of companies did it voluntarily, or at least semi-voluntarily, at first. Eventually, it gained momentum, and a lot of the focus was applied to suppliers...but they got much better as a result, didn't they? Overall quality improved tremendously from 1998-2004.
 
#25
I still say 95% of us will obtain ISO or whatever, due to mandates by our customer base.

Do your customers insist or do they recommend you obtain a cert?

It is a lot of money for a small place to follow the trend. I have seen in many cases where the small company spends more time and effort than they can can actually afford.

There are alot of those yellow, for sale or lease signs around the Detroit metro area. Alot of of long standing companies are gone!!! ISO or any other AS,QS...etc... didnt help them. We still re-up because we have to.

Once you have a cert and you know the ropes, Why do we need to pay someone $1800.00 annually to tell us what we already know, which in our case is that we are not perfect, we are not the best, but we have a very good management system in place. Why, because $$$$$$$$$$$.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#26
Did it? Using the factual approach to decision making principle, I wish we had data to show one way or the other.
Did quality stop improving after 2004? Why?

The comment was general and anecdotal, for the most part.

However, it is primarily borne out by the data I review regularly at about 50 clients I audit. I essentially am assigned to audit the same clients time and again. Significant improvements in that time. Most are currently at 0 -10 ppm. Some at 50 or less. Fewer than 5 are at more than 100 ppm, and even they have shown massive improvements from where they were. This has been the case for some years now. Almost all have shown significant improvement and robustness.

That is pretty reliable data, though obviously I am not permitted to show the objective evidence for obvious reasons.

I also remember around 2004 reading a comment by a fairly highly placed executive at GM, that 78% of the GM suppliers at the time were at or near 0 ppm. The quality problems were essentially caused by 22% of their suppliers (and probably a few by the GM lines themselves). I think I can safely assert, that was definitely not the state the industry was in back in 1994 (when ISO began to make inroads in the US), let alone 1984.

I'm sure Toyota and Honda suppliers are performing just as well.

The 2004 date was not particularly significant, though around that time, the Big 3 got much pushier and uglier with their suppliers. They began complaining about even irrelevant things, even though their standards were based on 25 ppm. I noticed an uptick in my clients in a 3-5 ppm range, where many had been holding 0 ppm before that.

That's all I've got. There are solid data in there, but not as empirical as some of you would like. On the other hand, I offered some solid data some time ago, as a challenge to the Cove, and not a single person took up the challenge to compare data.

When I make statements here that this stuff CAN work, it is not based on me wishing it would work. I have SEEN it work for many companies over the years. I press my clients to make it work. Somewhere along the line, I understood that was the role of an auditor. Those that want to play games do NOT stay in my client roster.

Further, many of you here on the Cove have seen it work at your companies. Let's not forget the many posters who indicate good results. I would suggest the crowd probably falls about 50/50. Half have seen very good results at their companies, and half are still focused on how they can get around the system. Remember, if you put in the effort, you deserve good results.

I think there is more than enough data, if one wants to see it. If it didn't work, I'd get out of the business. But, since I know it works, it's a blast! :yes:
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#27
It is a lot of money for a small place to follow the trend. I have seen in many cases where the small company spends more time and effort than they can can actually afford.
I agree for a small company it can be expensive.

There are alot of those yellow, for sale or lease signs around the Detroit metro area. Alot of of long standing companies are gone!!! ISO or any other AS,QS...etc... didnt help them.
I would suggest ISO was not the cause. It may have helped many survive a little longer. The Big 3 have a murderous attitude toward squeezing the very life out of their suppliers, then moving on to the next one. I think they are getting a long overdue whipping they have long deserved. unfortunately, a lot of companies in MI, OH, IN, and PA have been abused and harmed by them.


Once you have a cert and you know the ropes, Why do we need to pay someone $1800.00 annually to tell us what we already know, which in our case is that we are not perfect, we are not the best, but we have a very good management system in place. Why, because $$$$$$$$$$$.

If you are not getting beneficial findings from your auditor to help you improve, then maybe you don't have the right auditor...:cool:

I rarely have an audit where we don't have some useful findings, even if they are just OFI's.
 
P

potdar

#28
Those that want to play games do stay in my client roster.

Further, many of you here on the Cove have seen it work at your companies. Let's not forget the many posters who indicate good results. I would suggest the crowd probably falls about 50/50. Half have seen very good results at their companies, and half are still focused on how they can get around the system. Remember, if you put in the effort, you deserve good results.

I think there is more than enough data, if one wants to see it. If it didn't work, I'd get out of the business. But, since I know it works, it's a blast! :yes:
So there are those who want to play games. and they continue on your roster with a valid certificate. They dont get a warning or get kicked out. Is it $$$ speaking?

So long as us seeing it work or trying hard to make it work in our companies, you are dead on spot. Thats the very reason we are all here on the cove. Thats exactly the reason why we cannot be taken as a representative sample. There are so many people who did it under compulsion who are not present on the cove. We have seen them in our roles as auditors / consultants. The fact does slip through when discussing as 'they stay on'.
 
A

amanbhai

#29
I am a new employee (Quality Manager type) for a very small CNC machining company (4000 sq. ft. 6 employees). As of yet, this company have no systems in place, just the bare essentials. This will now be under my leadership and guidance to form our team and develop. The company is interested in ISO 9000 Standard but as I understand an ISO initial audit is quite expensive ($10K) as well as the follow-up (Auditors expenses) which can be another $5K. Is my cost information correct? Is there another type of accredition that we can obtain that will be more affordable and provide the same "clout" as an ISO review.
Apart from other things that you just asked,one thing that I would like to ask other auditors in Cove."Is ISO 9001 be called accreditation or certification?"
:thanks:
 
P

potdar

#30
Apart from other things that you just asked,one thing that I would like to ask other auditors in Cove."Is ISO 9001 be called accreditation or certification?"
:thanks:
Certification.

Let it suffice to say here that the paper is issued to you by a Certification Body. This is done after checking that you are working as per the standard ISO 9001:2000 and related documents.

They in turn are accreditated to an Accreditation Body. This paper is issued to them after checking that they work as per something called Guide 62 and related documents.
 
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