Looking for an Implementation Consultant... Is a consultant firm a good idea?

J

jguns

#1
Hey guys. Guess what ? I got a new job !
Anyways.. I have been put in charge of getting us ISO9001:2008 certified. We are a small welding shop (50 people). Place is a MESS. Disorganized, no clear process flow. No Quality manual, no procedures (written), etc. Get the pic ?
I received a call from a firm that wants to help us get registered. Wants to come in, interview us, write the manual, procedures, etc, audit us internally, then externally. I read in the threads the other day that there are some shady firms out there. Is this a good way to go ?

Thanks in advance
 
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T

Ted Schmitt

#2
Re: Looking for a registrar...

Congrats on the new job ! Sounds like you have your work cut out for you !
If you are a small firm, I would do it all yourself... if you have the means (management support, $$ to invest in training (you and employees) and know-how on how to do it), roll up your sleeves and get to work. Sounds like a good challenge.

In regards to shaddy companies, yes there are a few in every country and in every business... if you want to use an outside firm/consultant, check around here, references etc...
 
#3
Re: Looking for a registrar...

Hey guys. Guess what ? I got a new job !
Anyways.. I have been put in charge of getting us ISO9001:2008 certified. We are a small welding shop (50 people). Place is a MESS. Disorganized, no clear process flow. No Quality manual, no procedures (written), etc. Get the pic ?
I received a call from a firm that wants to help us get registered. Wants to come in, interview us, write the manual, procedures, etc, audit us internally, then externally. I read in the threads the other day that there are some shady firms out there. Is this a good way to go ?

Thanks in advance
Jguns - good for you! Looks like some work is ahead of you! Now, just to make things clear, this company is going to do pretty much everything? All the documentation, and both internal and external audits? Mmmmm, seems strange.

An Accredited Certification Body can't do that (of course)! If a consultant does do that, they won't be able to 'certify' you to ISO 9001:2008, either - well, at least not in any way your customers would understand. If certification is what you mean by 'external audit'.....
 
#5
Re: Looking for a registrar...

Having someone come in and write the stuff for you is good from the standpoint that it frees you up to get product out the door. However, there are some disadvantages:

1) You are paying someone to type your procedures. Normally, they get paid a great deal more than what you would pay a typist.
2) You pay them to get aquainted with your processes, and even then, they might not understand them as well as they should.
3) If they write your documentation, then they have ownership... not you. You have to do things their way. They will undoubtedly have procedures that you don't like. I have seen one instance where the purchasing procedure stated that the Director of Purchasing initials all P.O.'s. Problem is they didn't have a Director of Purchasing, so they created the title for one person. Also, lack of ownership might lead to folks not following procedures.

Also some consultants will want to marry your company.

Overall, I think it is a good idea to get someone to help you, but it is important for you (meaning your company) to do the work.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#6
Hey guys. Guess what ? I got a new job !
Anyways.. I have been put in charge of getting us ISO9001:2008 certified. We are a small welding shop (50 people). Place is a MESS. Disorganized, no clear process flow. No Quality manual, no procedures (written), etc. Get the pic ?
I received a call from a firm that wants to help us get registered. Wants to come in, interview us, write the manual, procedures, etc, audit us internally, then externally. I read in the threads the other day that there are some shady firms out there. Is this a good way to go ?

Thanks in advance
As both a consultant and an auditor for registrars, I think it is a good idea to hire experts to help you, if you are not expert yourself. However, what you describe sounds a little suspect. It sounds like the company is simply going to hand you a system and certify it. That does not help you much, it only gives you a certificate. Your objective should be to get a good management system that will help you run your company better.

You might want to compare them to a few other companies, and then decide. There are some good consultant companies here on Elsmar. You can read our comments and learn much about us just by reviewing what we say on Elsmar.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
The below quotes from Cove members are all good points.

I'd like to emphasize the difference between a "contract tech writer" and a "consultant."

A consultant's job is to help you and ALL the folks in your organization put together a Quality Management System (QMS) which fits your business and will help it be successful. Just incidentally, he will also help you understand how your good QMS will coincide with the requirements of an ISO Standard (or SAE-Aerospace Standard) to satisfy requirements of some of your customers who may request all their suppliers to have actual certification/registration to such a Standard.

If the consultant does his job correctly, you will write your own manuals and procedures, using language you and your fellows are familiar with and (with the knowledge you have gained from this consultant) will be able to revise these documents in the future as your organization's need may require.

The bare bones description provided in the first post is of a "contract tech writer," regardless whether it is an individual or a firm. Essentially, with some minor variations, such a contractor starts off with a portfolio of generic documents (manuals, procedures, work instructions, etc.) and after a cursory examination of your operation, he will cut and paste in those documents to present you your own portfolio of documents. I want to emphasize that such documents will almost always pass a desk review by an auditor from a Registrar examining your organization prior to conferring registration to one of the international Standards. The "gotcha" part comes during the personal site visit to see if your actual operation matches the story put forth in the documents. Sadly, many organizations don't really have the ability to match the ideal set forth by those documents (without additional instruction and training) and sometimes a whole lot of screaming, shouting, and name-calling takes place.

In rare instances, an organization isn't that far off the ideal to begin with and so passes the on-site audit without too much trouble sometimes with a few inconsequential "opportunities for improvement" or minor nonconformances which are easily remedied.

Bottom line:
Whether your organization can get by with a "contract tech writer" or should hire a consultant to help everyone in the organization learn about, create, and implement an efficient, effective QMS on its own is is a question which different Cove members might answer differently after actually performing a gap analysis to determine the gaps between your current operation and the type of operation most likely to get registration to an international Standard. A big part of that opinion will include a bias for or against consultants or contract tech writers, depending on the Cove member's personal experience with either or both types of assistance.

Hey guys. Guess what ? I got a new job !
Anyways.. I have been put in charge of getting us ISO9001:2008 certified. We are a small welding shop (50 people). Place is a MESS. Disorganized, no clear process flow. No Quality manual, no procedures (written), etc. Get the pic ?
I received a call from a firm that wants to help us get registered. Wants to come in, interview us, write the manual, procedures, etc, audit us internally, then externally. I read in the threads the other day that there are some shady firms out there. Is this a good way to go ?

Thanks in advance
Having someone come in and write the stuff for you is good from the standpoint that it frees you up to get product out the door. However, there are some disadvantages:

1) You are paying someone to type your procedures. Normally, they get paid a great deal more than what you would pay a typist.
2) You pay them to get aquainted with your processes, and even then, they might not understand them as well as they should.
3) If they write your documentation, then they have ownership... not you. You have to do things their way. They will undoubtedly have procedures that you don't like. I have seen one instance where the purchasing procedure stated that the Director of Purchasing initials all P.O.'s. Problem is they didn't have a Director of Purchasing, so they created the title for one person. Also, lack of ownership might lead to folks not following procedures.

Also some consultants will want to marry your company.

Overall, I think it is a good idea to get someone to help you, but it is important for you (meaning your company) to do the work.
As both a consultant and an auditor for registrars, I think it is a good idea to hire experts to help you, if you are not expert yourself. However, what you describe sounds a little suspect. It sounds like the company is simply going to hand you a system and certify it. That does not help you much, it only gives you a certificate. Your objective should be to get a good management system that will help you run your company better.

You might want to compare them to a few other companies, and then decide. There are some good consultant companies here on Elsmar. You can read our comments and learn much about us just by reviewing what we say on Elsmar.
 
H

Hemi999

#8
Re: Looking for a registrar...

I agree with Dave. You have to know, understand and justify what is said based upon the requirements that you are corking too. As a consultant I have seen canned programs and you can spot them a mile away when you don't take wonership by putting it in your words and making it to document what you do in your own shop.
Procedure/work instructions document step by step what you do to perfrom a QUALITY task. A quality program needs to start with processes that affect quality.
 
J

JaneB

#9
Re: Looking for a registrar...

Dave, I can't let this one go by, because there's so much I disagree with and some that, as a consultant, I find somewhat insulting.
1) You are paying someone to type your procedures. Normally, they get paid a great deal more than what you would pay a typist.
And good ones - or even just reasonably competent ones - will deliver a great deal more than simply typing! Such as - finding out the information, putting it together in a logical order, considering alternative (and more user-friendly ways of presenting information), highlighting weaknesses and places where things don't make sense/don't connect... and that's just for a start. And one reason why they should be paid more. If all I was doing was typing something up a/I'd feel guilty because I'd know I was ripping the client off and b/I'd be bored out my brain and c/I'd find an alternative. Just typing? They could get a temp typist if necessary to do that, and cheaper. Have I told clients that? Yes!

2) You pay them to get aquainted with your processes, and even then, they might not understand them as well as they should.
True to some extent. But again good ones are experienced at process analysis and can pick things up very fast. Much faster (usually) than internal people could - that's why you get in consultants! and that's what they're supposed to do. No, they won't know the details - but many times, many organisations still struggle mightily with what processes are and how to think 'process' as opposed to department/task/procedure.

3) If they write your documentation, then they have ownership... not you. You have to do things their way.
Oh, unfair and not true. I work very hard to make sure that if by any chance I do some of the writing, that my clients are fully involved, review them, and make all the important decisions, such as which format they prefer, what 'works' and feels right for their organisation. Because I want them to own it, not me! And keep working to ensure that this happens. And the other good consultants I know have the same ethos. I doubt that any of theirs or my clients (for example) would say 'we had to do it their way'. This comment isn't fair or true. Again, good consultants will work to make sure it belongs to the client and suits the client. Another reason you pay us.

They will undoubtedly have procedures that you don't like. I have seen one instance where the purchasing procedure stated that the Director of Purchasing initials all P.O.'s. Problem is they didn't have a Director of Purchasing, so they created the title for one person. Also, lack of ownership might lead to folks not following procedures.
Causes include: poor consulting, poor (missing??) review by client, failures on both sides. Does it happen? Yes, unfortunately. But always? NO. Please don't tar 'all consultants' with just the bad examples; I find it insulting.

I've come across some unspeakably awful and incompletent so-called 'Quality Managers', 'Quality Engineers' and the like - but I certainly don't go around tarring all QMs with the same brush. Why, oh why is it that you think it's OK to do this about consultants?

Also some consultants will want to marry your company.
A few might, but good ones won't. Neither I nor any of my colleages do. Because good ones KNOW that their services will remain in demand, there will be new companies to help and new challenges.

Most consultants (certainly good ones) consult because we seek the challenge of difference and change, and we certainly don't want to stick in the same old company. If someone's just consulting 'cos they can't find a 'real job', they may. But they're not really worthy of the name consultant anyway.

ANY consulting assignment can only work if both parties are clear about their respective parts and roles. Both parties work together - it's a team approach, using consultants as temporary skilled resources. A failure is (usually) not solely on one side!!

Finally: could we please respect each others' value and roles?
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
It appears Jane does not agree with my definition of consultant and contractor ( Consulting – Is it in YOUR Career Future?) - many of the activities she describes appear to be a hybrid of my two definitions.

I assert a "consultant" does not create documents for a client, but helps the client learn how to create its own documents. This is not to say the consultant can't act as editor to insert him[her]self in the approval chain prior to the final version being adopted for use by the organization.

I have said in my earlier post there is room in the universe for both contractor and consultant, but few organizations described as
"a MESS. Disorganized, no clear process flow. No Quality manual, no procedures (written), etc. Get the pic ?"
are likely to follow an ideal plan delivered by a contractor unless and until the contractor also helps EVERYONE in the organization learn WHY the plan should be followed and each person in the organization actually is eager and motivated to follow it. Given that such an outsider goes to that length, why not go a little more and encourage the client organization to write its own?
 
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