Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO 9001

[SteelMaiden]

ARMMY, you state that you have no experience in the quality field and you were chosen to be the quality manager? Can you share a little background and maybe we can use that to help find you some direction? It can be very frustrating to find yourself in a new career and not even know what questions to ask. I was very lucky when I moved to the quality arena to have a boss who really wanted to teach me. Unfortunately, it appears that you've kinda moved right into that manager's spot and have to self teach. I wish you luck, keep coming back. This is a good place to be. (and I still think you need to keep pushing about some education...do it gently, but don't abandon hope.)

 

[Stijloor]

Friends,

A very sad example of management abdicating their primary responsibility.

Delegating dumping a responsibility on a "willing worker" without any support. No we're not "Out of the Crisis" yet....

Stijloor.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

I don't think any of those things are necessary or even helpful in most cases. Ganging up on a CEO is almost never a good idea, and is likely to have unexpected consequences somewhere down the road even if the initial goal is accomplished.

In the initial effort at implementation there is often misapprehension on the part of top management. There's a failure to understand what's needed to get it done. Someone--often a quality manager--has the mandate dropped in his lap in the belief that a nominally competent person, working more or less in isolation, should be able to do what's needed to accomplish certification.

When it doesn't work, and the cooperation just isn't there, the person given the responsibility initially is often made a scapegoat and someone else is given the task. On that second (or third) time around, top management is more likely to get involved, at least to the extent necessary to get the ball rolling and keep it in motion.

In any event, if the authority needed to accomplish an efficacious certification effort must be pried or cajoled out of the hands of top management, registration might be accomplished, but not much in the way of really improving anything.

I don't agree with your characterization of my suggestions to include the word or the action "pried" which is furthest from my intent. "Cajole" on the other hand, is a normal way for lower echelon people to coax desired action out of senior level bosses. Cajolery, flattery, and charm are often deployed to bring such senior folk to the table to sit still long enough to hear a reasoned argument. It is not the cajolery which influences them to do more than listen. In the end, every top boss either buys the reasoning or he doesn't. Frankly, few initiatives (good or bad) get to the third strike stage - either the initiative or the boss is gone before the third pitch. If you get a new boss, the count starts all over.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

I don't agree with your characterization of my suggestions to include the word or the action "pried" which is furthest from my intent. "Cajole" on the other hand, is a normal way for lower echelon people to coax desired action out of senior level bosses. Cajolery, flattery, and charm are often deployed to bring such senior folk to the table to sit still long enough to hear a reasoned argument. It is not the cajolery which influences them to do more than listen. In the end, every top boss either buys the reasoning or he doesn't. Frankly, few initiatives (good or bad) get to the third strike stage - either the initiative or the boss is gone before the third pitch. If you get a new boss, the count starts all over.

Not too long ago you wrote:

Gosh, I pity the person who works in an environment where sycophancy (sucking up) is the primary criterion for survival. I certainly do not believe sycophancy is the rule in MOST situations.

Let's review: Deming's theory of a System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK) is the diametric opposite of sycophancy - it posits that an informed and aware workforce makes suggestions for the good of the organization, NOT to soothe the ego of some petty satrap who happened to follow Peter's Principle to a position of power.

Now it seems that flattery of the "petty satrap" is a "normal" course of action, which means that it must be a fairly widespread practice.

As far as the implementation efforts go, you have to remember that most registrations are in the hands of privately-held companies, and a person who owns the company is not likely to likely to be be gone after an implementation attempt fails. I agree that the necessity for a third attempt is uncommon, but that's more due to CBs being generous than anything else. That's the same reason that there are so many ineffectual certified quality systems, and the reason that top managers, in too many cases, never have their feet held to the fire.

 

[Neophyte]

It's a bit longer term approach but ASQ offers many online courses, mostly as prep for various certifications, but many of them could be very helpful. This thing is have your company buy a copy of the standard for whatever QMS they have chosen ISO 9001, ISO/TS16949, etc. Read the standard. Read it again. Keep reading it until you can practically quote it verbatim from memory. Next, even if your not planning on certification, have you company pay the fees and take the prep courses for preferably CQE, CQA, and CMQE. By the time your done with those the rest is just real world experience and higher level statistics education.

Obviously, what I'm recommending here isn't something you can get done in time to meet a "I expect to see XY or Z by the end of the month or quarter", but if you're planning on staying in the quality related career path it will teach you what you need to know.

 

[Wes Bucey]

It's a bit longer term approach but ASQ offers many online courses, mostly as prep for various certifications, but many of them could be very helpful. This thing is have your company buy a copy of the standard for whatever QMS they have chosen ISO 9001, ISO/TS16949, etc. Read the standard. Read it again. Keep reading it until you can practically quote it verbatim from memory. Next, even if your not planning on certification, have you company pay the fees and take the prep courses for preferably CQE, CQA, and CMQE. By the time your done with those the rest is just real world experience and higher level statistics education.

Obviously, what I'm recommending here isn't something you can get done in time to meet a "I expect to see XY or Z by the end of the month or quarter", but if you're planning on staying in the quality related career path it will teach you what you need to know.

Of course, the first hurdle is to get the top manager to provide resources to buy a Standard or pay for courses or ASQ memberships. My anecdotal evidence is that the majority of companies which used to pay for ASQ courses and memberships have ceased doing so. This is based on complaints and comments from the many current and former ASQ members I see and correspond with. We speculate it may be one of the contributing factors to the precipitous fall in the ASQ membership count over the past five years.

 

[Neophyte]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Amen! Like probably most of us, I think I've lived this one. (Unfortunately as that first doomed martyr.)

I don't think any of those things are necessary or even helpful in most cases. Ganging up on a CEO is almost never a good idea, and is likely to have unexpected consequences somewhere down the road even if the initial goal is accomplished.

In the initial effort at implementation there is often misapprehension on the part of top management. There's a failure to understand what's needed to get it done. Someone--often a quality manager--has the mandate dropped in his lap in the belief that a nominally competent person, working more or less in isolation, should be able to do what's needed to accomplish certification.

When it doesn't work, and the cooperation just isn't there, the person given the responsibility initially is often made a scapegoat and someone else is given the task. On that second (or third) time around, top management is more likely to get involved, at least to the extent necessary to get the ball rolling and keep it in motion.

In any event, if the authority needed to accomplish an efficacious certification effort must be pried or cajoled out of the hands of top management, registration might be accomplished, but not much in the way of really improving anything.

 

[JaneB]

I have been appointed quality manager of my small company however I have no experience in this area and havent an idea where to begin. Whats worse is that Im not long working for this company and and am not aware of all there proceedures....
I have an outline so far as how I am going to pursue it

What are the actual responsibilities of your quality manager job? ie, what do you have to do exactly?

You talk about having an outline of how you're 'going to pursue it' - what is the it that you're pursuing precisely? Run an existing system? Just do the grunt work / doc control? Get the company certified? Big different in all those. (The title of QM can mean many different things in many different companies. More info needed on the context here).

 

[Neophyte]

Of course you're right, Wes. I know my current company probably wouldn't. They might, probably would, pay for a copy of the standard... eventually, but I know they certainly haven't covered any of my ASQ and/or certification expenses.

Companies no longer want to invest in the development of their employees, because they no longer expect to keep them for their careers. They'll hire what they need for the moment, and if in a few years something else is needed time to let the employee go and hire one with a new skill set and by the way no accumulated increases in compensation.

Relatedly, I've notice few companies do long term planning anymore. It's all about what can get done by the next quarterly statement. One of the reasons quality programs and departments in most companies are looked at as an annoyance instead of an asset. That and despite all of our talk of it we have done a poor job in many cases of making our case the we are not just a cost but actually benefit the bottomline; though it is harder when that bottom line net gain has to come in 3 month increments.

 

[Neophyte]

(The title of QM can mean many different things in many different companies. More info needed on the context here).

Quite true. In some organizations it is truly a department head with fairly broad authority to set policy and procedures, in some it is basically a documents clerk, and in still others it is basically the lead inspector.

Unless the position is with an organization that is just title crazy which some are, if you look at the responsibilities and authorities the QM has (in real operation, not just listed on the job description) and you can get a pretty good idea about how serious the company is about their quality initiatives.