LPA's (Layered Process Audits) - Evaluation of Effectiveness

H

HIDBIGO

#1
In all the presentations for LPA checklists and in reviewing completed/implemented checklists I have found no information/evidence regarding evaluation for "effectiveness". If an LPA is intended to fulfil the TS requirements for a "Manufacturing Process Audit", (clause 8.2.2.2) which TS requires "to determine its effectiveness", and if effectiveness is defined roughly as performance to objectives (process measures), then there appears to be a gap to requirements. Or am I missing something?:thanks:
 
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#2
Re: LPA's and Effectiveness

Bingo! and welcome to the Cove!

I'm not sure if you've had a chance to perform a search on the topic here, but you might well find similar discussions. I, for one, have questioned the validity of the LPA approach as a substitute for any kind of regular quality audit, but since it's flavor of the month (and, I suspect they're done better than some internal audits) they get a lot of support. The LPA's don't actually look at the effectiveness, as you say, but (strangely) they are attributed with causing vast improvements in FPY.

Let's see if others give you their perspective........
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#3
I am a big fan and proponent of LPA and have observed companies improve their overall performance (customer satisfaction, scrap level, etc).

Currently I am assisting of one of clients implementing an LPA system in our of their plants. They have struggled for years with standard process/control plan audits.

On effectiveness: LPAs results must be rolled up (weekly, monthly) and reported to all parties involved. Action plans must be developed to reduce non-conformances found. The goal is to drive down N/Cs. I think if you know how to measure effectiveness of control plan audits, you know how to measure effectiveness of LPAs.

LPAs are short (max. 30 minutes, max. 10 questions or so), frequently executed by multiple levels of management, corrective actions are taken immediately when N/C are found. The goal is to reduce risk to your company. Risks include customer dissatisfaction, high scrap, high rework and so on.
 
Last edited:

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#4
In all the presentations for LPA checklists and in reviewing completed/implemented checklists I have found no information/evidence regarding evaluation for "effectiveness". If an LPA is intended to fulfil the TS requirements for a "Manufacturing Process Audit", (clause 8.2.2.2) which TS requires "to determine its effectiveness", and if effectiveness is defined roughly as performance to objectives (process measures), then there appears to be a gap to requirements. Or am I missing something?:thanks:

I would not recommend that your LPA should take the place of Mfg. Process Audits. The LPA's are fairly brief, and performed by personnel who often are not trained as auditors. They are intended as an overview.

Mfg. Process Audits give you the opportunity to do an indepth control plan audit, if you wish, which would provide a much better review. LPA's are good for catching low-hanging fruit, which is why the OEMs like them so much.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#5
Good point.

If the OEMs like LPA very much and LPA catch low hanging fruit, suppliers should like LPAs as well.

Finding defects/problems before the OEMs do is what we all want. Think about all the resources (expedites, customer dissatisfaction, sorting cost, corrective action cost, travel cost, SQE/STA visits to your facility, etc) to could go wasted.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#6
Good point.

If the OEMs like LPA very much and LPA catch low hanging fruit, suppliers should like LPAs as well.

Finding defects/problems before the OEMs do is what we all want. Think about all the resources (expedites, customer dissatisfaction, sorting cost, corrective action cost, travel cost, SQE/STA visits to your facility, etc) to could go wasted.

Yes, it is useful for any organization with low hanging fruit. It is similar to the concept of "Management by Walking Around" made popular a few years back.

But many of my clients are at < 5 ppm and 100% delivery. Unfortunately, they have virtually no low hanging fruit anymore. For them, this becomes a limited-value exercise.
 
#7
After the intial rounds of LPA, I've had feedback that the returns diminish pretty rapidly. The comment made to me was that "it's tough going and asking the same questions of the same people when you know how they're going to react and you know you're not going to find anything".
 
H

HIDBIGO

#8
Re: LPA's and Effectiveness

Bingo! and welcome to the Cove!

I'm not sure if you've had a chance to perform a search on the topic here, but you might well find similar discussions. I, for one, have questioned the validity of the LPA approach as a substitute for any kind of regular quality audit, but since it's flavor of the month (and, I suspect they're done better than some internal audits) they get a lot of support. The LPA's don't actually look at the effectiveness, as you say, but (strangely) they are attributed with causing vast improvements in FPY.

Let's see if others give you their perspective........
Hi Andy,

Thanks for the feedback. However, it still doesn't answer the effectiveness part as required by ISO/TS. So, is this a situation where the organization must a.) do a better job of check list creation and b.) do a better job of record keeping, which clearly demonstrates that manufacturing process objectives are part of the LPA?
 
H

HIDBIGO

#9
I am a big fan and proponent of LPA and have observed companies improve their overall performance (customer satisfaction, scrap level, etc).

Currently I am assisting of one of clients implementing an LPA system in our of their plants. They have struggled for years with standard process/control plan audits.

On effectiveness: LPAs results must be rolled up (weekly, monthly) and reported to all parties involved. Action plans must be developed to reduce non-conformances found. The goal is to drive down N/Cs. I think if you know how to measure effectiveness of control plan audits, you know how to measure effectiveness of LPAs.

LPAs are short (max. 30 minutes, max. 10 questions or so), frequently executed by multiple levels of management, corrective actions are taken immediately when N/C are found. The goal is to reduce risk to your company. Risks include customer dissatisfaction, high scrap, high rework and so on.
Thanks for the feedback. I am not much interested in the effectiveness of the LPA, but rather is the LPA - if it is intended to be equvalent to a ISO/TS manufacturing process audit -required to review the effectiveness of the manufacturing process? I have not observed anyone (during 3rd party assessments) actually reviewing the manufacturing process for effectiveness as recorded by the checklist or in the auditors notes. By effectiveness, I mean performance to objectives as defined by the organization.
 
#10
The AIAG manual CQI-8 has a section on auditing the LPA process. Although I am not sure about how well it determines effectiveness. There are some common sense things that could give you an idea of LPA effectiveness. For example:
• Does the LPA keep bringing up the same issues?
• Are things improving overall?
• Are the issues moving away from compliance to prevention?
These are just some things you could use for effectiveness.

While I have an issue with using LPA to meet 8.2.2.2 (because of the prohibition of auditing your own work), tCQI-8 states on page 8 that it can be used to meet that requirement.
 
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