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Main Elements of an EMS - ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) Auditor Interpretation

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darkafar

#12
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

It is an interesting map. The way I read cl 4.4.4, it sounds like you need to identify where the clauses are addressed in your system as well.
You mean the clause is asking us to quote ISO14001 clauses in our documents?
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#13
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

You mean the clause is asking us to quote ISO14001 clauses in our documents?
No, not necessarily. But, you have to address this requirement:

4.4.4 Documentation
The environmental management system documentation shall include...

c) description of the main elements of the environmental management system and their interaction, and reference to related documents,

Somehow, you have to tie it together a little more.
 
D

darkafar

#14
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

I really don't understand. All the elements have been addressed in my documentation, although they are not addressed together in one document.

I can assure you, whichever clause or its requirements of the standard you point to, I can find corresponding expression/requirements in our documents.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#15
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

I really don't understand. All the elements have been addressed in my documentation, although they are not addressed together in one document.

I can assure you, whichever clause or its requirements of the standard you point to, I can find corresponding expression/requirements in our documents.

Perhaps you are meeting the requirement then. If all the users in your system can find the appropriate documents or procedures, and it is clear and easy to find, perhaps it works. It is difficult to determine that for certain from this far away.
 
C

cheahga

#16
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

Hi Darkafar,

Looking at your process map, I have a few questions which you may help to us to understand more:

a) Is this process map demonstrating the whole processes of your company EMS? Or is there more?
b) What is the main input to your EMS? Customers? Interested parties?
c) Does all these processes documented subjected to identification of aspects, evaluation of their impacts?
d) Was your aspects & impacts evaluation process being documented? If not, how do you do it?
e) Are waste, noise management resulted from the aspects & impacts evaluation? Or was it output from the processes described? How do you provide these link?
f) Are there others pollution control apart of waste, noise management (I would presumed that these were your significant environmental aspects that you're controlling)?
g) What is "EMS process" described here? Is there a special EMS process map?
h) How does your emergency response come about? What is the input associated with it?
i) If your worker need to understand the EMS process, i.e., emergency preparedness, how do you described the interaction based on your input-output process approach? What are the relevant documentations required which are traceable to this processes?

:read:
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#17
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

You mean the clause is asking us to quote ISO14001 clauses in our documents?
Again there is no requirement in any standard for you to make any reference to any clauses of any standard in any documentation you produce. Full stop. Period.

However .... it may help you to have confidence you have covered all the requirements - if so by all means make a reference.

It may also help you to be able to point some dumb auditor to where the requirements are satisfied in your system because they can't be bothered to think for themselves. Up to you.
 
D

darkafar

#18
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

Hi Darkafar,
Looking at your process map, I have a few questions which you may help to us to understand more:
a) Is this process map demonstrating the whole processes of your company EMS? Or is there more?
The profile, yes! Not all EMS elements are detailed in this process map, some are in the sub process map. For example, the EMS Process Design process includes EMS processes such as environmental aspect identification process, applicable legal and other requirements identification process, document and process creating process, legal and other requirements compliance evaluation process.

b) What is the main input to your EMS? Customers? Interested parties?
Requirements from interested parties, namely, the big bosses, the authorities, the customers, they are shown in directives, laws, and customer-specific requirements.

c) Does all these processes documented subjected to identification of aspects, evaluation of their impacts?
Yes. However, the EMS Process Design Process, by its name, is used to design EMS processes. We haven’t identified an Environmental aspect for this process.


d) Was your aspects & impacts evaluation process being documented? If not, how do you do it?
Yes, they are. In the document, EMS Process Design procedure, we have an Environmental Aspects and Impacts Evaluation Sheet, in which we list all Environmental aspects and their impacts, and mark the significant environmental aspect.


e) Are waste, noise management resulted from the aspects & impacts evaluation? Or was it output from the processes described? How do you provide these link?
Yes, they are evaluated. We have internal audit procedure, the findings will provide information to EMS Process Design process, which, considers all other requirements, services to design waste, noise management processes.

f) Are there others pollution control apart of waste, noise management (I would presumed that these were your significant environmental aspects that you're controlling)?
That’s right. The judging criteria are laws. As we have just established EMS system, we do not expect our system perform better than laws expect, so all the process elements that may conflict with laws are identified as significant Environmental aspects.

g) What is "EMS process" described here? Is there a special EMS process map?
If you mean the EMS Process Design process, it is a sub process map. Its main function is to design EMS processes, something like APQP.

h) How does your emergency response come about? What is the input associated with it?
The emergency response Procedure is an output of the EMS Process Design process, the inputs includes law requirements, customer requirements, boss’s directives, and the company’s real situation.


i) If your worker need to understand the EMS process, i.e., emergency preparedness, how do you described the interaction based on your input-output process approach? What are the relevant documentations required which are traceable to this processes?
The emergency response procedure mainly tells how the employees should react should an emergency happens. It consists of several processes, which, correspond to several imagined emergency situations.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#19
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

...It may also help you to be able to point some dumb auditor to where the requirements are satisfied in your system because they can't be bothered to think for themselves. Up to you.

I don't consider myself to be a dumb auditor, but the organizations system has to be clear enough for THEIR personnel to use it and show me where they address things. It is not my task to go hunting for it!

If the layout of the system is not clear enough for their folks to find things, then the system is NOT suitable and effective...might as well go and write it in Greek...(or even Swedish...:D)
 
C

cheahga

#20
Re: What does ISO14001 Clause 4.4.4 c) mean?

Hi Darkafar,

From what you've clearly explained the details of input-output interaction of your processes and how it link to each other, I can say that you hit the bull's eye of meeting the requirement.:applause:

Great job:agree1:. Thanks for your detail explanation. Appreciate those.
 
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