Major nonformance finding was given during a closing meeting of a ISO9001 certification audit

Randy

Super Moderator
#21
Randy,
We really don't know the entire story. Something could have been said at the closing meeting that contradicted what was originally presented/told to the auditor. A situation like this is very rare I would think but the audit is not over until the closing meeting ends. What if the auditor's 'audit trail' is checked during a random ANAB audit of his organization? They look closely at Management Review and no doubt ANAB would probably issue a non-conformance and then the auditor is in trouble. I worked for a Registrar about 8 years ago. ANAB audited our project folders on a regular basis. Seemed like they were there every calendar quarter.
I've been doing the CB thing for the better part of the last 18 years, I've taught somewhere in the region of 200 Lead Auditor courses and piled a bunch of other stuff in and around that and here's 2 absolutes... (1) No surprises & (2) You don't drop a major nonconformance on anybody at the closing meeting. One of the problems with this industry is 2nd guessing an auditor and his/her reasoning & judgement.

The missed item in management review may very well have been could very well have been a subject where for the year the input was -0- (zero). Where's the requirement for absolutely having everything in the management review that we see in 9.3.2 (9K15 example)....There isn't! All that is absolutely required with a "shall" is that 9.3.2 a-f be "considered" and "considered" means "yeah we thought or talked about it but..." Nothing in 9.3.2 is even required to be documented...Look at it! No documentation required! No shall! Documentation of anything related to Management Review is on found in 9.3.3 where the "results" of reviews are to be retained, not the planning, not the inputs, only the results.

Now here's the catch, if the organizations own documentation requires documenting everything and they don't, well OK then, but still not a Major, maybe a minor for not following the procedure, maybe a minor for not including everything, but that's it. With all that you still don't wait until the closing meeting and shout "SURPRISE I GOTCHA", because your butt will never have lunch with them again. Shout "MAJOR" under the same circumstances and you'll probably be walked to the door.
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#23
With all that you still don't wait until the closing meeting and shout "SURPRISE I GOTCHA", because your butt will never have lunch with them again. Shout "MAJOR" under the same circumstances and you'll probably be walked to the door.
This has been my point.

All nc classifications re, Major or Minor are subjective -based on the opinion oftheCB auditor.
None the less - If it isn't brought up until the closing meeting, the auditor has totally broken the norms of an exit meeting, whether a minor or major. It just isn't done. And if it is, I would not accept it. I would close the meeting and complain to the registrar.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#24
All nc classifications re, Major or Minor are subjective -based on the opinion oftheCB auditor.
That's your call, my call is that they aren't raised until (1) you have a clear requirement and (2) you have objective evidence that a clear requirement wasn't met...If you based NC you raised on your opinion then maybe you were correct to get out of the business, because our "opinion" doesn't enter the equation and it's that point where objectivity and impartiality ceases to exist.
 

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#25
Where's the requirement for absolutely having everything in the management review that we see in 9.3.2 (9K15 example)....There isn't! All that is absolutely required with a "shall" is that 9.3.2 a-f be "considered" and "considered" means "yeah we thought or talked about it but..." Nothing in 9.3.2 is even required to be documented...Look at it! No documentation required! No shall! Documentation of anything related to Management Review is on found in 9.3.3 where the "results" of reviews are to be retained, not the planning, not the inputs, only the results.
I couldn't agree more Randy!

Just to add. It's not clarified by ISO 9001 but Annex A.3 of ISO 14001 and ISO 45001 clarified the meaning of the word "consider". Both standards mention that "consider means it is necessary to think about but can be excluded".
 
#26
I must disagree with you. The MR minutes should reference each and every requirement in 9.3 and if a spefic requirement was not applicanle then it should be recorded as such in the minutes.
 
#27
If during an audit the CB auditor is lied to about the MR process and the lie is discovered at the closing meeting do you agree or disagree that a non-conformance can be raised and based on the magnitude of the lie the NC can be Major?
 

try2makeit

Quite Involved in Discussions
#28
If during an audit the CB auditor is lied to about the MR process and the lie is discovered at the closing meeting do you agree or disagree that a non-conformance can be raised and based on the magnitude of the lie the NC can be Major?
Disagree !!! Your closing meeting is there to convey findings/system stability/possible observations to Management. The findings are to be written up prior of the closing meeting. If there is evidence that may have been missed to dismiss the finding, or you disagree with it, it can be done in the time frame before the ink is dry on the report and is presented to Management.

Never ever have I had an auditor that waited until closing meeting to present his/her findings. As Randy pointed it out, they would never be back again. And if there are responses in the closing meeting that raise a flag with the auditor, he/she will have a chance to take another look the following year if they return. They are very good of making notes to themselves in regards of what they want to look at again.

If your CB auditor presents their finding to you like this, without prior discussions, I'd say change CB. There are rules they have to follow.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#29
If during an audit the CB auditor is lied to about the MR process and the lie is discovered at the closing meeting do you agree or disagree that a non-conformance can be raised and based on the magnitude of the lie the NC can be Major?
NC findings must be based on objective evidence observed during the audit. Furthermore, the finding must be communicated at the time of the observation, so there should be ample opportunity to present countering evidence well before the closing meeting. That's the reason that findings shouldn't be sprung on the auditee in the closing meeting. I don't see how anyone lying about something could play into this.

Earlier in the thread I asked the OP to give us the entirety of the NC statement, and this is what we were given:

Full NC statement: Not all requirements of the ISO 9001:2015 standard were covered as part of the management review in October 2018 (i.e. effectiveness of actions to address risks and opportunities). No evidence could be provided to show what was discussed at the meeting and how the actions recorded were verified.
There's compelling evidence right there that the auditor is incompetent. That's no way to write an NC statement. Note that there's nothing there to support even a minor NC, let alone a major. The auditor doesn't explain or cite the complete underlying requirement, and there's a question (to me, anyway) whether the auditor might be confounding "i.e." with "e.g." which are two different things, and the difference is important in this case.
 

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#30
All nc classifications re, Major or Minor are subjective -based on the opinion oftheCB auditor.
Highlighted above is what i feel is one of the biggest downfalls. How can one ever truly prepare for the opinion of the CB auditor that changes every 3 years. Opinion should be left out. If you have an opinion about something, drop an OFI. We are paying the CB for a service. If someone uses their subjective opinion to update our team about a major NC in the closing meeting, that would be the last opinion i get from them.
 
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