Management doesn't want process audits?

T

Thunder Head

#1
Let me start by stating we are a manufacturing facility. While interviewing during our last internal audit, it was brought to our attention that during the last stages of assembly, a metal guard was supposed to be there ready to paint with the rest of the parts. It was also noted, the same guard (which we manufacture) is always assembled at shipping and does not always fit thus causing the product not to ship that day or causes havoc to find another one. So we have two issues; 1) The guard is not always manufactured correctly. 2) The guard is not on time causing the paint shop extra time and work. The audit team wrote this as an audit observation not a finding. The vice president of the company was very upset and wrote a note stating that we were not supposed to be looking at the processes just the ISO procedures. I just want to add, we just passed our third party audit and after the closing meeting, he told the top management his auditors were doing a great job. I need feedback!! What to do now?
 
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Al Rosen

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Let me start by stating we are a manufacturing facility. While interviewing during our last internal audit, it was brought to our attention that during the last stages of assembly, a metal guard was supposed to be there ready to paint with the rest of the parts. It was also noted, the same guard (which we manufacture) is always assembled at shipping and does not always fit thus causing the product not to ship that day or causes havoc to find another one. So we have two issues; 1) The guard is not always manufactured correctly. 2) The guard is not on time causing the paint shop extra time and work. The audit team wrote this as an audit observation not a finding. The vice president of the company was very upset and wrote a note stating that we were not supposed to be looking at the processes just the ISO procedures. I just want to add, we just passed our third party audit and after the closing meeting, he told the top management his auditors were doing a great job. I need feedback!! What to do now?
I think it is outside the scope of your audit, but certainly requires corrective action.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#3
You might be better doing a corrective action on the problems you describe rather than to try to enforce rules using audits as a tactic. It is my opinion you cannot 'audit in' conformance. If people aren't doing their jobs, why is it? If there are quality issues causing timing problems, why is that happening? An investigation and derivation of Root Cause will do more good than trying to use audits to 'get people to do what they're suposed to be doing' which is what it seems to me is your goal. Of course, as I say - This is my opinion.

As food for thought see this discussion thread: Layered Process Audits - Getting Results? Show me the data!

The thread I have linked to is somewhat specific to layered process audits, but the same principle applies. Note that a 'Layered' audit is one in which different layers of management do a process audit.
 

Attachments

#4
An interesting situation all around. Firstly, you've got a clear management issue of him not understanding the purpose of audits, which is very usual, IMHO. Did you involve the management in planning the audit? Is this something that there's a clear cost associated with? That manager may not understand but someone there does, like the finance person........

Secondly, how did you come across this issue? Was it volunteered? Does it say anything about this in the procedures that you were (supposed to be) auditing? It seems strange to me also, that if this is a common problem, why no-one has raised it as an issue for a corrective action. Which leads me to another thought, does the non-conforming guard ever appear on the top 10 items being rejected?

There's a pony in there somewhere..............you need to find it and report it in terms of $$$$$

Andy
 
#5
I think it is outside the scope of your audit, but certainly requires corrective action.
Al, why so - "out of scope"?? This isn't a 3rd party audit now, y'know..........:rolleyes:
During an internal audit, everything's 'in scope', if it gets things fixed..........and the original audit can be completed too.
Andy
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#6
What do you do now? Is that the question?

Here you go. Do what you have been asked by who ever it has requested or authorized the audits to happen in the 1st place. The proper term for the authorizor/requestor is "Client". The audit is their property not the auditors. Continue to document in your notes or whatever what you find, but give him/them what they ask for.

Oh, a word of explanation, a "finding" in neither positive or negative, it is just the result of evidence weighed against criteria. You guys did develop a finding, it was the observation you reported.
 
T

Thunder Head

#7
To answer a couple of questions and clarify some things...the auditors originally came across the guard issue from an interview with a shipping employee. The audit team was not trying to enforce rules, two departments (shipping and painting) both brought this issue up. The audit team thought if this was brought to the attention of the "VP" (he is responsible for production and is the coach of this area) he may or may not feel this was a severe enough issue to pursue, as in root cause etc.... As far as the top ten items being rejected..I know this would not fall into that catagory. Each product we make is almost a custom product. In other words we probably have 200 styles and sizes of this guard. As far as Management being involved...the Quality Manager was directly involved and encouraged the team to act on this. This being said, the QM and VP does not see eye to eye. Randy, the question is; 1) What to do now? 2) Was the team out of line? 3) With this happening, there is a breakdown in the process somewhere, right? 4) What to do about him not wanting us to perform any process audits?
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#8
Randy, the question is; 1) What to do now? 2) Was the team out of line? 3) With this happening, there is a breakdown in the process somewhere, right? 4) What to do about him not wanting us to perform any process audits?

1..Do what is required and asked of you according to the way requested.

2...To answer #2 requires a question. What was the objective of the audit? Every audit has to have an objective or purpose. We don't audit for the sake of auditing. What were you trying to find out? If there was no predefined objective then you have initiated an audit to serve no purpose.

3..You are correct, there is a breakdown and it seems to start with your management by what you have stated.

4...Is he the boss or does he serve someone else? Is he the client or is someone else the client? Auditing whether internal, like yours, or external, like the ones I perform should be guided by 5 basic principles from ISO 19011:

a) Ethical conduct: the foundation of professionalism
Trust, integrity, confidentiality and discretion are essential to auditing.

b) Fair presentation: the obligation to report truthfully and accurately
Audit findings, audit conclusions and audit reports reflect truthfully and accurately the audit activities.

c) Due professional care: the application of diligence and judgement in auditing
Auditors exercise care in accordance with the importance of the task they perform and the confidence placed in them by audit clients and other interested parties. Having the necessary competence is an important factor.

d) Independence: the basis for the impartiality of the audit and objectivity of the audit conclusions
Auditors are independent of the activity being audited and are free from bias and conflict of interest. Auditors maintain an objective state of mind throughout the audit process to ensure that the audit findings and conclusions will be based only on the audit evidence.

e) Evidence-based approach: the rational method for reaching reliable and reproducible audit conclusions in a systematic audit process
Audit evidence is verifiable. It is based on samples of the information available, since an audit is conducted during a finite period of time and with finite resources.

Did you apply these principles? Did you conduct your audit as a value added process?
 
G

Greg B

#9
To answer a couple of questions and clarify some things...the auditors originally came across the guard issue from an interview with a shipping employee. The audit team was not trying to enforce rules, two departments (shipping and painting) both brought this issue up.
Without even being there I can tell that the shop floor had an issue to push and everyone pushed it to the audits. This means that no one has listened to them before and could mean a number of things. The reporting/action chain for suggestions/continuous improvements (CI) is not good enough, CI is not taught and therefore not understood, The CI is not sold correctly (benefit to the company/$$$ etc) or the people up the chain cannot see a good suggestion when they see one...this works in most of the companies I have dealt with.
The audit team thought if this was brought to the attention of the "VP" (he is responsible for production and is the coach of this area) he may or may not feel this was a severe enough issue to pursue, as in root cause etc....
I knew the VP had some direct involvement with the process from the FIRST post. He doesn't want to fix it because then he would have to admit he has a problem in HIS area. This is another recurring theme. Was he involved in the close out meeting? has he had any formal QA training because if he had he would know that auditing the process IS part of the ISO standard!!
As far as Management being involved...the Quality Manager was directly involved and encouraged the team to act on this. This being said, the QM and VP does not see eye to eye.
Are you sure you don't work at my old plant?:lol: The amount of good audits and auditors I have seen scrapped because of turf wars is too long to list

Randy, the question is; 1) What to do now? 2) Was the team out of line? 3) With this happening, there is a breakdown in the process somewhere, right? 4) What to do about him not wanting us to perform any process audits?
1: There are many suggestions I could make and they include, as Andy said, turn it into a dollar figure and sell the CI that way. Management can't ignore dollars!
2: I don't think the team was out of line but maybe they did not sell it right either. Maybe their training could be improved. Maybe you could have an in-house training session for managers and auditors together and discuss what it is the company wants and needs from audits.
3: There is a definite process breakdown
4: Management ,and the VP in particular, needs to see the gaps in the process that are costing THEM dollars and this can only be done by auditing the process. I don't audit the process via the standard but rather I walk it thru with a flow chart. I flow chart each and every step (sometimes with a tech/operator from the area), I ask why each step is done and after it is over I find the redundant, misaligned and time consuming steps and see if they can't be removed or fixed in some way. If I can show that a certain step takes five minutes but is redundant and the step is performed 50 times a day I can show that we are costing the company 250 minutes (over 4.1 manhours) a day, 365 per year (1,520 m/hrs per year...it starts to add up). If you take 60 seconds to putt on every hole in golf it will take up 18 minutes of your round. It doesn't sound much but if you have a foursome doing it, it takes over an hour of putting...every second costs money!!! YES, I audited a golf course once and it had nothing to do with ISO anything. The club captain wanted to improve revenue and to do that he had to increase the amount of players in each day...so we audited what happened...simple really.
I have attached a simple flow chart of a non conformance for an order. We use this as a step guide to costing our NCs. It was the first chart I used to show management the dollars that it was costing us. I then used it to convince them that although our teams reviewed their work instructions they did not audit the process from a third party perspective. We needed to look at the steps but also the gaps between the steps. What isn't being done? What could be done better before and after each step? What did the customer or next step holder require from the previous step owner? It changed everyone's thinking.
I had to do a lot of homework and a lot of 'off the record' work to prepare for this change. I had to SELL it to them and as in all change it required a lot of preparation. These people needed to know how it benefited them and the company. Why it needed to be done? It needed their involvement? The usual change steps had to be employed but it was worth it.
PS: It took me about six months of solid work and a lot of headaches but it was worth it :) Good luck.
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
How can the team be 'out of line'? Internal audits must determine that the QMS conforms to planned arrangements, meets the requirements of the standard and is effectively implemented.

The QMS is designed to ensure that conforming product is produced and customers are satisfied.

The audit team discovered an ineffective process and potential for dissatisfied customers.
 
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