Management Representative cum sole auditor - is it an NC?

[Paul Simpson]

i am an auditor and a MR as well,

my question is i work for the quality unit in my department but our unit is not included in the quality system,

How is this? Does your unit do work for the department? If so you should be included in their system. Are you the MR for the department or somewhere else? Again if you are the MR then you are included in the system - you have responsibility for it!

we dont have documented processes for our unit, we dont have a plan for the year.. i wana bring this matter to the director of the department.. since our quality unit supervises, maintaines the quality system, is it necessary to include it in our quality system? the scope of the system covers the whole department only it excludes our quality unit..

pls help..

thank u

You don't necessarily have to have documented "quality" processes (apart from audit) if all the other mandatory procedures (document control etc.) are done by someone else. But if your unit manages the system then you are included in the scope.

If you feel you need documented processes .... then they should be documented.

 

[M Greenaway]

Will we ever get away from people not being allowed to audit their own work I wonder ?

I know the reasons why it is frowned on but arent we in a similar situation where we used to have independant inspectors in an inspection department, whereas nowadays we tend in most companies to make our operators responsible for their own quality, and therefore their own quality checks ??

 

[somerqc]

I have a little different twist on the same question.

Is it an NC for the MR to be the sole internal auditor if there were 2 other internal auditors; however, both have left the company over the last 5 months?

We are currently undergoing a cultural change that some people don't wish to be part of, so they are leaving (basically, it is going from being a country club to a structured company). Yes, ISO registration was part of it; however, just a small part.

My surveillance audit is in 2 weeks. I am not worried about the audit as I think we have been doing a great job in using the system to bring in this planned change; however, do you think he will give me an NC for not having any other auditors internally (or contracted)? Btw, the 2nd internal auditor just left 2 weeks ago and only gave 4 days notice.

Looking for opinions,

John

 

[AndyN]

Will we ever get away from people not being allowed to audit their own work I wonder ?

I know the reasons why it is frowned on but arent we in a similar situation where we used to have independant inspectors in an inspection department, whereas nowadays we tend in most companies to make our operators responsible for their own quality, and therefore their own quality checks ??

Unlikely..........just because some people don't 'see' things the way they are. On the BBC many moons ago, there was a programme where they interviewed drivers after a (small) 'fender bender'. I remember one driver was adamant that (after rear-ending a van) he wasn't driving too close and that he couldn't have avoided the incident by being further back............

IMHO you also have to give the appearance of 'independance' of the auditor.

It's true that operators are given responsibility for their quality, however, they are often checking others' work and not their own. Furthermore, what they are doing is often not totally value added, since modern QA/QC relies more appropriately on process controls rather than checking output

 

[AndyN]

I have a little different twist on the same question.

Is it an NC for the MR to be the sole internal auditor if there were 2 other internal auditors; however, both have left the company over the last 5 months?

We are currently undergoing a cultural change that some people don't wish to be part of, so they are leaving (basically, it is going from being a country club to a structured company). Yes, ISO registration was part of it; however, just a small part.

My surveillance audit is in 2 weeks. I am not worried about the audit as I think we have been doing a great job in using the system to bring in this planned change; however, do you think he will give me an NC for not having any other auditors internally (or contracted)? Btw, the 2nd internal auditor just left 2 weeks ago and only gave 4 days notice.

Looking for opinions,

John

John:
The situation will be in the eyes of the specific auditor. If it were up to me, I'd be asking for your plan to identify what auditor resources you need. The quantity isn't as important as what your audit program is, and what resources are needed to make it work.

Since you haven't given us much background, like what your headcount is, business/market you're in, we can't do much to help you. Since the 'last' auditor only quit recently, 'stuff happens' as they say. However, in the world of 'audit survival', avoiding an NC is often about having a 'good story' to tell about your situation and what you're doing about it.

There is, potentially, a good opportunity for you to bring in an experienced external person, just to 'fill in'............

 

[Dubai_capi]

How is this? Does your unit do work for the department? If so you should be included in their system. Are you the MR for the department or somewhere else? Again if you are the MR then you are included in the system - you have responsibility for it!
You don't necessarily have to have documented "quality" processes (apart from audit) if all the other mandatory procedures (document control etc.) are done by someone else. But if your unit manages the system then you are included in the scope.

yes our quality unit is part of the department and we audit the system.. its not included in the scope at all.. am the MR of the system in my department..can you specify the reasons to include our unit in the system when we dont have documented procedures for the unit.. we do support tasks including establishment andmaintainance of the ISO

 

[Paul Simpson]

yes our quality unit is part of the department and we audit the system.. its not included in the scope at all.. am the MR of the system in my department..

Then you are included in the system. You should have responsibilities and authorities identified (5.5.1) and competence requirements specified (6.2). Your unit might be referred to in the procedures for audit (8.2.2), corrective action (8.5.2) and preventive action (8.5.3) etc., etc.

can you specify the reasons to include our unit in the system when we dont have documented procedures for the unit.. we do support tasks including establishment and maintainance of the ISO

These are support processes that might be included in the process interrelationship in the manual (4.2.2) but do not necessarily have to be documented. It is up to your organization to decide if you need these procedures to describe the processes you use.