Management Representative cum sole auditor - is it an NC?

[Randy]

Which is more important, objectivity and impartiality or independance (auditing own work)?

This has been argued 1000 times over with the same results with sides taken by the "Purists" and the "Realists"

Go back and look for the reason of the audit and then go back further to the part of the standard that most people never read (the front).

The standard is applicable to any organization of any size doing anything.

ISO 9000:2005 - 3.3.1 organization
group of people and facilities with an arrangement of responsibilities, authorities and relationships

EXAMPLE Company, corporation, firm, enterprise, institution, charity, sole trader, association, or parts or combination thereof.

That takes us to the organization which consist of 1 and only 1 person.

Would validity of the audit be less if the 1 person within the organization audited the system in an honest, objective and impartial fashion compared to an auditor of a 1000 person company who is totally independant, and who for whatever reason slants the audit one way or another? Where is the value of that "not auditing his own work" in a biased audit?

The purpose of the audit is to monitor and measure the performance of the system designed and implemented to help achieve customer satisfaction.

Would the customer not be better served from an objective (honest) approach than an independant approach with no guarantee of objectivity?

Make a phone call and ask your customer "Hey do you want an honest, objective evaluation of our QMS, or an assurance of the independance of our auditor with no consideration of an impartial, objective evaluation?"

Whadya think the answer will be?

 

[tarheels4 - 2007]

Which is more important, objectivity and impartiality or independance (auditing own work)?

This has been argued 1000 times over with the same results with sides taken by the "Purists" and the "Realists"

Go back and look for the reason of the audit and then go back further to the part of the standard that most people never read (the front).

The standard is applicable to any organization of any size doing anything.

ISO 9000:2005 - 3.3.1 organization
group of people and facilities with an arrangement of responsibilities, authorities and relationships

EXAMPLE Company, corporation, firm, enterprise, institution, charity, sole trader, association, or parts or combination thereof.

That takes us to the organization which consist of 1 and only 1 person.

Would validity of the audit be less if the 1 person within the organization audited the system in an honest, objective and impartial fashion compared to an auditor of a 1000 person company who is totally independant, and who for whatever reason slants the audit one way or another? Where is the value of that "not auditing his own work" in a biased audit?

The purpose of the audit is to monitor and measure the performance of the system designed and implemented to help achieve customer satisfaction.

Would the customer not be better served from an objective (honest) approach than an independant approach with no guarantee of objectivity?

Make a phone call and ask your customer "Hey do you want an honest, objective evaluation of our QMS, or an assurance of the independance of our auditor with no consideration of an impartial, objective evaluation?"

Whadya think the answer will be?

Wow, you sure must be a good dancer there Randy on that response. Ha ha. No consulting there, tee hee.

 

[JaneB]

Excellent answer Randy. Going back to the purpose is always important, where blind adherence to the 'letter' of anything is just that - blind.


(I had to look twice though - didn't recognise you without the armour & weaponry!)

 

[tarheels4 - 2007]

(I had to look twice though - didn't recognise you without the armour & weaponry!)

Ah, maybe "The Pen is Mightier than the Sword".

 

[KateE]

I am the QMR and the main auditor for my comapny - 30 staff in total. I do the vast majority of the auditomg, BUT I have a colleague who audits anything that I do - maintaining the Quality System and documentation for example.

It seems to work quite well. - We just passed our 3 year triannual assessment for re-certification to ISO9001 without any NCFs - I was so happy as all the hard work had paid off.

 

[JRKH]

As a Management representative I prepare audit plan, conduct audits cross divisionally, close all the CARs by myself being the sole auditor.
Is this not an NC that I inspite of other auditors (though not willing to audit), am the sole auditor.

Pardon me if I am wrong, but it appears you are looking for support because you are in a disfunctional situation. If you have nearly 10 trained auditors who are not tasked to perform audits, then you have no auditors.

The issue here is bigger than whether you audit your own work. There is a major breakdown in the system somewhere.

Who is responsible for the audit program?
Who assigns the audits and auditors?
What happens if an assigned auditor fails to perform?

Me thinks this question has little to do with auditing ones own work.
Am I right?

James

 

[Colin]

Me thinks this question has little to do with auditing ones own work.
Am I right?

James

Precisely the point I was trying to make earlier!! Are we (the Cove) being asked to make statements that can be used in support of a more general concern?

 

[amanbhai]

OK, so you have a problem.

1. Find a way of actively encouraging the other "auditors",
2. Raise the issue with the top management
3. Contract an outside auditor to help
4. Do any or all of the above
   
   

Actually I was using all the three options. In the last meeting I raised the issue with the top management & they took action. Today I have got someone with the credentials required. I will be training him next few days.
Pray for me.

 

[AndyN]

As a Management representative I prepare audit plan, conduct audits cross divisionally, close all the CARs by myself being the sole auditor.
Is this not an NC that I inspite of other auditors (though not willing to audit), am the sole auditor.

The issue is that your management don't see any value in the audit program. It sounds just like another recent post where, despite training auditors, they don't want to get involved in doing any audits.

If the audit program isn't on management's radar screen, then you will end up doing all the work, the other auditors will all stand back and let you struggle and, maybe your external auditor will give you an NC.

What do you do to make the audits value added to the management team? How do you schedule your audits? On a 'push' system which has audits done to a calender but doesn't consider any issues that the management team are concerned about? Do you involve management in their input to the scheduling?

If the answer to any of these is not involving management, then you have an albatross around your neck (the auditing system) and there will be no help for you, because everyone has enough work to do already! It's got to be aligned to management's priorities, then the auditors you choose have to be competent to actually do the audits.

Go for it!

 

[Dubai_capi]

i am an auditor and a MR as well,

my question is i work for the quality unit in my department but our unit is not included in the quality system, we dont have documented processes for our unit, we dont have a plan for the year.. i wana bring this matter to the director of the department.. since our quality unit supervises, maintaines the quality system, is it necessary to include it in our quality system? the scope of the system covers the whole department only it excludes our quality unit..

pls help..

thank u