Management Representative is NOT a member of Management

[LUV-d-4UM]

I can assure you all that this discussion is not boring. It gives me strength to do the right thing during CB audit for my organization. Thank you!

 

[somashekar]

Yes, it is not boring. It would have not gone upto post # 122 if it was. We all benefit with each one's experience.
On a lighter note, MR in our langauge is often said as Marte Raho (keep dying)

 

[LUV-d-4UM]

I hope that we are referring to English as a primary language of this Forum. What it meant in your language is no laughing matter. I am only referring to section 5.5.2 Management Rep.

 

[LUV-d-4UM]

Somashekar,
I do not know about your language, but MR can also mean Maja Rajah. Some people keep working to die; but I keep working to become a King.

 

[rexch]

There are many responsibility for MR. If he is not a member of management, how can he do those job according to ISO?
I think if you can prove that he can do those work even if he is not a member of management.Then you might pass it. I don't know if it can work out.

 

[JaneB]

There are many responsibility for MR.

Not in my copy of the Standard, ISO 9001: 2008. It insists upon only 3 points of responsibility and authority:

a) ensuring that processes needed for the quality management system are established, implemented and maintained,
b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement, and
c) ensuring the promotion of awareness of customer requirements throughout the organization.Cl 5.5.1

They don't have to actually do part or any of the various tasks involved, but they must ensure that these requirements are met.
Now, there may be other responsibilities & authorities given in a particular organisation (I think it's an important role too, and that no one can do it without having the necessary authority, not just the responsibility), but these are the only 3 mandated.

As for whether they must be a member of management or not, again, the Standard is quite specific (my bold added):

Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management

 

[Big Jim]

Not in my copy of the Standard, ISO 9001: 2008. It insists upon only 3 points of responsibility and authority:


They don't have to actually do part or any of the various tasks involved, but they must ensure that these requirements are met.
Now, there may be other responsibilities & authorities given in a particular organisation (I think it's an important role too, and that no one can do it without having the necessary authority, not just the responsibility), but these are the only 3 mandated.

As for whether they must be a member of management or not, again, the Standard is quite specific (my bold added):

Jane,

You're much too literal.

Encompassed in each of those three are many things. The first one along lists three of them. It would be easy to show inferred ones with each of those. There are at least two things in the second one as well as the inferred ones. And the third one has countless one encompassed in it as to how it is to be accomplished.

rexch is right. There are many things a management representative needs to do to accomplish the items specified.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Jane,

You're much too literal.

Encompassed in each of those three are many things. The first one along lists three of them. It would be easy to show inferred ones with each of those. There are at least two things in the second one as well as the inferred ones. And the third one has countless one encompassed in it as to how it is to be accomplished.

rexch is right. There are many things a management representative needs to do to accomplish the items specified.

To illustrate the fact that this clause is too murky, consider this hypothetical situation: A CB auditor is conducting a registration audit and is speaking to the "top" manager:

Auditor: Who is your management representative?

CEO: Sally Smith.

Auditor: What is Sally's job title?

CEO: She's a punch press operator.

Auditor: She's not a member of your organization's management.

CEO: Yes she is.

Now, assuming that the requirements described in the standard for management representatives have been demonstrably fulfilled, who gets to determine who's a member of management and who isn't?

 

[LUV-d-4UM]

Jim,
The above situation is common. The Top Management answers the auditor that "Sally Smith" is the Management Rep even if she is the punch operator.

 

[Bill Pflanz]

I find it interesting that there are quality professionals who are also management representatives but reqularly complain about top management ignoring them. There are also many cases where the quality professionals probably understands the management system better than anyone else but are not part of management. I understand what the intent of the standards is but the reality can be totally different.

Bill Pflanz