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Management Representative is NOT a member of Management

J

JaneB

#131
#131
Big Jim said:
There are many things a management representative needs to do to accomplish the items specified.
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And what I say is that the Standard does not say that the management representative must himself/herself 'accomplish' the various requirements. Not so. :nope:

In fact, it doesn't even use the word 'accomplish'. It says 'ensuring'... as in 'ensuring' processes are established, 'ensuring' the promotion of customer awareness etc. Accomplish vs ensure are, as I imagine you understand, different verbs.

One could argue further that the only thing they're specifically required to 'accomplish' is reporting to top management.

Now, if the MR also IS top management (often the case with my clients), it can be nonsense indeed with a small company/one with a very hands on MD etc, to have that role also "reporting" to her/himself. But that the reporting must occur is clear. Again, I"d read it as having to ensure that it happens, but not necessarily having to specifically do it him/herself.
 
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B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#132
#132
JaneB said:
And what I say is that the Standard does not say that the management representative must himself/herself 'accomplish' the various requirements. Not so. :nope:

In fact, it doesn't even use the word 'accomplish'. It says 'ensuring'... as in 'ensuring' processes are established, 'ensuring' the promotion of customer awareness etc. Accomplish vs ensure are, as I imagine you understand, different verbs.

One could argue further that the only thing they're specifically required to 'accomplish' is reporting to top management.

Now, if the MR also IS top management (often the case with my clients), it can be nonsense indeed with a small company/one with a very hands on MD etc, to have that role also "reporting" to her/himself. But that the reporting must occur is clear. Again, I"d read it as having to ensure that it happens, but not necessarily having to specifically do it him/herself.
Click to expand...
OK, change the verb as you wish. There is still more than three things involved.
 
B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#133
#133
Jim Wynne said:
To illustrate the fact that this clause is too murky, consider this hypothetical situation: A CB auditor is conducting a registration audit and is speaking to the "top" manager:

Auditor: Who is your management representative?

CEO: Sally Smith.

Auditor: What is Sally's job title?

CEO: She's a punch press operator.

Auditor: She's not a member of your organization's management.

CEO: Yes she is.

Now, assuming that the requirements described in the standard for management representatives have been demonstrably fulfilled, who gets to determine who's a member of management and who isn't?
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Jim, just to be clear, that is not a position I have taken. I'm sure I would be writing that one up, and I think you would too.
 
A

amanbhai

#134
#134
Jim Wynne said:
To illustrate the fact that this clause is too murky, consider this hypothetical situation: A CB auditor is conducting a registration audit and is speaking to the "top" manager:

Auditor: Who is your management representative?

CEO: Sally Smith.

Auditor: What is Sally's job title?

CEO: She's a punch press operator.

Auditor: She's not a member of your organization's management.

CEO: Yes she is.

Now, assuming that the requirements described in the standard for management representatives have been demonstrably fulfilled, who gets to determine who's a member of management and who isn't?
Click to expand...
The Auditor. Why becuase she must be making liaison with the external parties, present during the whole or part of the external audit.
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#136
#136
Friends,

TC 176 better put this thing to bed....;)

The intent to me is as clear as glass, the interpretation needs work, as this thread shows...:frust: :frust: :frust: :frust:

Stijloor.
 
A

andrev

#137
#137
Please keep in mind that the "management rep" can be part of management, he can be the CEO of the organisation, but he will delegate his or the M/R's duties to a non member of management, defined and added in your manual as a "deputy management rep"
 
D

daraghofla

#138
#138
I've been following this thread for some time. It's been a blast. However, what I believe has transpired is the following:
The clause is open to interpretation. We have seen interpretation from the CB auditor perspective and the CB auditee perspective. The auditor perspective has been generally vague, focussing on what the clause doesn't say whereas the auditee perspective has been much more pragmatic(i.e.:- choosing to take the clause at it's intended meaning whereas the auditor states that the wording isn't clear enough for an "intended meaning" to be inferred)

In short, call your MR what you want. That MR (as per clause) should be able to ensure the QMS. What's really at play is how an organisation chooses to define what "ensuring a QMS" really means.

Is this possibly what needs to be defined in the quality manual (as opposed to who your MR is)???

The thread was running low on juice
 
J

jasonb067

#139
#139
I have only been trained on ISO9001 and TS16949 specific requirement. As I have been trained to understand the requirement the purpose of the MR is to have "authority" to implement a management system which is compliant.

In my conversations with the MR the most commonly cited issue with compliance to the standard is Management support. These conversations were just a quality guy going into may suppliers locations throughout the country and just talking over lunch or a lull in activity otherwise with fellow "quality guys" (no, they are not always guys). I would say that I have had this conversation with around 100 people in the automotive industry only, so, not scientific by any means but there are threads full of MRs on this site explaining or giving examples of this same issue.

So, to address this why is the standard not revised to put more teeth into the requirement of Management support? It seems to me that if this failure were addressed more specifically then this conversation about an MR would be void.
 
A

andrev

#140
#140
The name says it all, representing management, the who it is is not important, as long as it is correctly defined in your manual.

The first post that started this made that mistake it was not about the M/R but what was written in the manual.
 
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