Management Representative is NOT a member of Management

[jasonb067]

Why is something in a STANDARD so open for debate?

 

[AndyN]

Why is something in a STANDARD so open for debate?

No one reads the guidance because they don't want to pay for another standard? No one finds good training on how to implement the standard because it's too expensive? No one wants to pay for some consultant to help them because it's too expensive? The reasons are myriad...

 

[jasonb067]

I think that those are reasons for non-compliance. I do not think that they are reasons for a standard being written too ambiguously.

 

[AndyN]

I think that those are reasons for non-compliance. I do not think that they are reasons for a standard being written too ambiguously.

I thought it was pretty clear what it means. My point is that people choose not to do what it says and then complain about non-conformities! If they took the time to understand what it says and means, and get help if they don't, there's no ambiguity! I'd wager that for the most part, those organization who have pushed this responsibility low down the organization, haven't spent money in the appropriate places to understand what it says...

Often the difficulty is, to find 'the right person' to do this, is too much 'trouble' or is 'extra work' and people decide on that basis, without knowing WHAT is involved. Jim says it's one thing, Jane says it's another. The standard's pretty clear and if you read the guidance - that's why it's there, after all, it's crystal clear.

 

[jasonb067]

We have had three management reps. in the past 13 years.

Each rep. is sent to ISO9001 training, and earn some lead auditor certificate from a well respected company which also performs our audits (in fact, I am looking at one of their ads on this page as I type). They all have had training at the same facility to the same hand outs but have changed previous interperatations once the job changed hands. When we did have a consultant it seemed as if it was just another opinion.

Then on this site there are many that have conversations or disagreements about what exactly this requirement or that requirement means. So, I can only conclude that there must be a problem with the way the standard is written.

This is one of the reasons which we removed ISO/TS certification from our supplier requirements (I know this because it was my idea to do so). This is the reason that every automaker we supply parts to audits our facility for complinace to thier own Q1, QSB, TPS etc quality management system.

Certification to ISO9001 can mean a lot. Certification to ISO9001 can mean nothing. It all depends on how the person reading the standard for the company and the third party understand what they are reading.

So is it a standard if it is not read and understood in a standard manner?

 

[andrev]

I.M.H.O. I would say that this questions sums up what's been said, but as far I am concerned this forum is for help when new kids on the block needs it, and we are looking at the pro's and those experienced ones to help,that's what brought me to the forum, but it seems like the pro's and the experienced ones are not much help.I dont think that standard(s) or the requirements of standards are not clear, maybe people interpret them as they wish to make their world better or easier. So I am just wondering how much help the person got who started this thread ??

 

[andrev]

You sure do things different in the united states,that's no lie.

 

[Randy]

As Andy stated, most people never pay any attention to the Guidance documents provided and how words and phrases are defined, so they "interpret" (in other words they make stuff up because they don't know).

At the beginning of many of the courses we teach, we normally introduce folks to the Guidance documents and explain their use and then we go into definitions that are either provided in the standard, like 14001 section 3, or in a seperate document like 9000:2005. Understanding how things are defined helps to minimize misunderstanding and the need to make stuff up (interpret).

On top of everything else people try to make it hard, they go out of their way to make it difficult. Why do all those wise and all knowing professionals try to make it tough? I have'nt figured that out yet, but when I do I will have already located the Holy Grail and the Pot-O'-Gold at the end of the rainbow 1st.

 

[Jason PCSwitches]

I.M.H.O. I would say that this questions sums up what's been said, but as far I am concerned this forum is for help when new kids on the block needs it, and we are looking at the pro's and those experienced ones to help,that's what brought me to the forum, but it seems like the pro's and the experienced ones are not much help.I dont think that standard(s) or the requirements of standards are not clear, maybe people interpret them as they wish to make their world better or easier. So I am just wondering how much help the person got who started this thread ??

To some extent - I agree.

IMHO, it really isn't that complicated if you look at things straightforward.

The problem - the human factor. Everyone has an opinion, some good & some no so much. Our nature is to veer off of the main road and take the route WE as individuals see fit. Once that road is traveled, it's human nature to stick with what has now become the "norm", or in this case what seems to have been proven effective. Once confronted with a difference of preference, we tend to get defensive, naturally.

At the end of the day, just read the standard(s) and take them at face value. After-all most standards have a statement regarding how they are essentially "generic" and the organization has the right to implement as it see's appropriate.

A good auditor, while they might have a different opinion or even a better vision, will focus on the effectiveness of the system and it's relation to the requirements and not ones own personal opinions.

Sticking to the nature of the post, a good management rep. can take hold of a system and move it forward even in the face of adversity.

As Andy states, most organizations take this lightly. Not always the case & some circumstances cannot be overcome however, if the MR is good they can have an impact. That is why I feel it's important to follow the guidance laid out in the standard. The janitor probably won't have access to top management as much as a director would.

 

[Paul Simpson]

As Andy stated, most people never pay any attention to the Guidance documents provided and how words and phrases are defined, so they "interpret" (in other words they make stuff up because they don't know).

And if the guidance doesn't say anything about (for example) management representative or what being a 'member of management' is?

At the beginning of many of the courses we teach, we normally introduce folks to the Guidance documents and explain their use and then we go into definitions that are either provided in the standard, like 14001 section 3, or in a seperate document like 9000:2005. Understanding how things are defined helps to minimize misunderstanding and the need to make stuff up (interpret).

So what exactly do you teach folks about management representative being a member of management, Randy.

I'm genuinely interested to know what knowledge you are passing on to the next generation of quality / environmental / health and safety managers. I'm not sure I'm going to like the answer though.

On top of everything else people try to make it hard, they go out of their way to make it difficult. Why do all those wise and all knowing professionals try to make it tough? I have'nt figured that out yet, but when I do I will have already located the Holy Grail and the Pot-O'-Gold at the end of the rainbow 1st.

Now here's the rub. This stuff is tough, it is difficult. Not the writing of a manual or even the drawing of an org chart with a wonderful new position of 'Management Representative' on it but, as for any other discipline and within any organization it is a fight for sufficient resources and attention for quality.

Because, guess what, everyone else in the organization thinks finance or training or IT is important and needs attention and the poor guy / gal at the top only has the same 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week to spend on the whole of the business. Good luck with your search(es).